The old Man Utd Thread

[JamesTW]

It still comes down to 11 v 11 and if the manager has them playing right, it's no good doing hypothesis about Man Utd having all this supposed advantage, Arsenal have a 60,000 stadium based in London and are the biggest name in London, how's that for a position of strength?

[bowser123]

For your sakes, you better hope you don't start finishing out the top 4 more often because eventually the name "Man United" won't be enough to draw the top players in. The more times you don't qualify for CL, the more money you didn't gain, the more stocks will drop and the more international "fans" will turn to the big money spenders like City and Chelsea (like they already are).

This post isn't grounded in reality. Chelsea and City haven't made any inroads on Uniteds popularity nor profitability, especially when you strip out false self sponsorship scams like the Etihad Airways deal.

What relevance does "stocks" have? Less than 10% of the club is floated with rights inferior to those that the Glazers hold, to the extent they are worth less than 3% of the votes. The partial float was done to raise money for the Glazers and to pay off debts, the share price was irrelevant to the club once the Glazers had the money.

United have the biggest shirt sponsorship in the league despite the deal being 13 years old. In 18 months time it'll be the biggest in the world when renegotiated and at least double what the second place English club receive. Hell, the club are paid more for the training kit sponsorship than 75% of the league receive for their main shirt sponsorship.

The club comfortably has the biggest attendance (coupled with expensive tickets and rip off ACS deals), the biggest commercial arm in the country by far. It'll still be shown live in more league games on Sky and BT next season than anybody else despite finishing 85th in the league. If Utd had the same opportunity for individual TV rights as the Spanish do it'd have the highest turnover of any football team in the world.

I mean literally everything Spurs and Liverpool do, United do it at least double. Attendance, turnover, shirt deals, commercial deals. These factors are not going away as the club is, and always be, the biggest in England. United spend significantly more on wages than nearly everybody in the league, yet have one of the lowest (sub 50%) wages to turnover ratio. The club has said finishing out of the CL this season and next won't change any of this.

The fact is years of underinvestment will be altered and significant money has been and will be spent. The question is will the money be spent correctly, but I know for a fact Utd will get players ahead of Spurs and Liverpool no matter where the teams finish this year. Years and years and years of financial dominance will not come to an end because of one season.

[Loik V credern]

You think the Champions League none qualification thing is going to be repeated for the foreseeable? I disagree. We will have much bigger pull than Liverpool and Spurs and simply buy the better players ahead of them, most likely finishing ahead of them at the very least in the future. I also think we have a bigger pull than Arsenal, especially when they are reticent to spend at the very highest level and can financially smash them and over bid for players ahead of them. "They have CL football" is the big cry- so what? CL football for 8 games maximum and no guarantee of repeating it the season after. Both Spuds and Scouse have atrocious Euro coefficient ratings and will be lucky to make pot 3, more likely be in pot 4.

Yes...I do. I think this decision marks the decline of United. I don't believe Rooney is a pull for players, i think they speak highly of him when they arrive because they realise they are threatening his position, and are essentially praising him to then say 'I can't wait to play WITH him'. Rooney is the most problematic player in the squad, both on and off the pitch, i thought you'd have at least agreed with that. Moyes isn't likely to play the highest paid player on the wing or deep in midfield, or drop him to the bench when he deserves to be there or the team need to breathe without his influence. With Rooney we're 7th. People assume 'without Rooney we'd be further down the table', well..this is being naive and simplistic maybe but I think without him, playing 5 in midfield, with a good coach that can implement this with fluency, we'd have played better as a team as opposed to the rotten football we have played, hoping Rooney scores his customary amount of goals in the league. For a few months, they were standard free kicks the likes of which we've seen loads of this season from any number of average players. He was hardly piercing through defences.

When Southampton and Swansea are at their free flowing best, playing as such a unit, it doesn't matter how the line up changes they still play with the same fluency. They're greater as a whole than they are individually, and i think that's a healthier concept than throwing a ridiculous amount on one ageing player to get you out of a hole or 'be a statement of ambition' (as pundits put it). Not desperation at all then ? How is it ambitious?

I hope Southampton continue to promote youngsters into their evolving team, and it doesn't come to a situation where Lallana is threatening to leave unless he's paid an unrealistic amount each week, and that he'll stay regardless because he favours the team and his place in it than personal glory. I know he stayed with them through divisions, this is not a slight on him, i admire their setup, and I am bored with the obsession on individuals and money. I'd rather Powell and Zaha were in the United team over Rooney.

The fact he has no understanding with Van Persie is a problem too. City and Liverpool have buck the trend with having 2 forwards, but it wasn't forced, the partnerships really gelled from the beginning. They bring out the best in each other, but it is evident in their movement and link up play that transforms the attack as a whole. It's not just isolated moments of 'a fabulous cross from Wayne perfect for Van Persie'. As that is what it is, one good pass at best for a whole game. The City and Liverpool duos work so much because of their constant running, pulling players away for their partner to exploit, seeking to put the ball in the box exactly where the other will want it. Of course there's plenty of examples of Sturridge and Suarez preferring to go alone and be greedy rather than find their mate, but that seems more like pure desire to score as opposed to the more petulant acts of Rooney that are driven to prove himself. Sturridge scores nearly every time he plays for Liverpool and he plays every time, he's never been in the position of Rooney whose position was under threat. Still it was with Mata arriving. It's a different dynamic for the City and Liverpool strikers who know they're trusted starters and can always play for the benefit of the team. I don't think Rooney plays like a striker anymore, who makes runs and pulls defences around. I don't think he has the pace, the desire, or that kind of threat. It's like he plays like someone who is jealous of every other player who has the ball.

I don't see what will be different next season from this season. I don't think United can attract apparently top players, no champions league, the unknown Moyes (in Europe certainly) instead of Ferguson, and yet an ageing Rooney whose wages will likely be higher than anyone else arriving will be too strong of a lure ?..We once had an in prime Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Ferguson helmed, title winning. I also don't think if we even got such players that Moyes would have any idea how he'd use them to their full potential.

Because of the big team fix they'll definitely get a giant- Barca/Madrid/Munich etc. They'll almost certainly get a 2nd or 3rd place team from the big countries because of the sheer number of teams from England and Spain from pot 2, something guaranteed if they draw say PSG. Throw in the stupidity of the likes of Dortmund and Napoli being rated so low and there's a possibility the pot three team will be a big game too. You add into the mix that Scouse barely have a squad to compete this season without being at breaking point on occasions. All they are playing for is 4th and they simply won't be able to play Saturday-Wednesday-Sunday like Mourinho points out. What will the extra thirty million from the CL qualification buy them?

Well, I do agree, next season the only team out of Chelsea, Arsenal, City we could possibly jump ahead of for fourth is Liverpool, but i think really highly of Brendan Rodgers and if he is supported on signings as he sometimes hasn't been, the lure of champions league will be the difference, Willian was nabbed by Spurs but eventually Chelsea, and Salah too. Wages aside, the champions league made the difference with those two I think. Hazard said he picked Chelsea over anyone else because they just won the Champions League. Rodgers thinks it's almost impossible to jump from 7th one season to challenging for first the next, and even with Sturridge and Suarez basically breaking all time striker records fourth is still not certain for them, with Spurs and Everton hovering behind. And yet United leap above all those too? Nothing this season has suggested it can happen. When last season Liverpool battered Swansea 5-0 at home and Newcastle 0-6 away, the way they played it was clear they'd surprise people this season. They can be formidable, they were a match for City at the Etihad like few have been, they mauled the team that has sat on top the table for most of the season, Arsenal. United meanwhile are struggling against the most hopeless relegation threatening teams, at home.

Rodgers has also proved he doesn't need stars, he's getting the best out of Sterling and Henderson.

You talk of desperation. Scouse guy above you said the same too.

Desperation is giving a player in Suarez 200K- that is a fee that smashes their wage structure, that takes them above 70% for their ratio of wages to turnover. That figure is dangerously close to being unmanageable. They took a risk and gambled but the figure is unsustainable unless they can guarantee a CL income beyond the group stages, unless they can finally build the stadium. They'll need more CL quality players for the squad to compete but that brings a cost, and when they've raised the bar for themselves so high I don't think they can afford numerous players at near Suarez levels. Their desperation comes in the need of offering insane money (compared to their revenue) in the hope of progressing.

I have no idea if it's sustainable for Liverpool. I don't mean desperate in that sense. Whether it's manageable or not, i have no doubt Liverpool believe he's worth that amount, with Rooney it's more like a 'statement of ambition' despite all the problems that are going to be caused, it's not about playing ability with Rooney, it's about perception, not to be perceived as a selling club. I don't know where this fear and paranoia has come from. You'd just be getting rid of a player past his best and letting others shine instead. That's all. If United had had a better season, there's nothing to say he'd have signed, but the circumstances mean United need to appear strong. Letting an apparently key player go would appear otherwise, apparently. Or something. With Liverpool it's not like that. It's just like; 'this guy is breaking all time premier league goal records, he is phenomenal, we have to keep him at all costs'.

Suarez could still leave, people assume he wouldn't sign without some buy out clause in his contract, like 60m or something. No one knows yet.

[Gringo]

I'd be surprised if Willian, Salah and Hazard chose Chelsea for any other reason other than the large wads of cash they were promised. If say, Chelsea and City offered the same amount of money, a player might choose the club they think has a better chance for success in the CL. If Liverpool or Spurs were in the CL I doubt they would have gotten either Willian or Salah as they simply wouldn't have been offering the same money.

[bowser123]

-aehii

Look dude, you're preaching to the converted on Rooney. I despise the greedy, self serving bastard and wanted rid of him first time round, I wanted rid 10 months ago when it all reared up again. He is wildly over rated and absolutely isn't worth the cash. He has extended periods of time where his form is dreadful, a situation that often comes about because he is weak mentally and his regular off the field antics exacerbate the situation. I think he is deeply unprofessional. I've said I think he's done better this year because of factors that aren't present the next- world cup, contract and transfer talk. He knew he had to get fit and try harder but this doesn't exist in 6 months time.

I want a striker in RVP, Mata behind him, 2 wide, creative players that will dribble, interchange and shoot. So for me Nani and Januzaj is my front 4, unless you want to buy somebody ridiculous to replace Nani. You then buy two proper CMs, ideally ones that have energy and drive, will tackle yet be more than a water carrier. With the addition of those CMs we can line up like City or Chelsea do rather than the 4-4-2 obsession, as I think our attacking players are not only similar to their systems but at least comparable in quality and in some cases better.

Who knows, maybe RVP will be fucked off and we can play this way? I think it unlikely and unwise given RVP is better, but I can dream. Otherwise you cry at Mata being wasted like Kagawa is.

The thing is the discussion starter wasn't whether he is a good or bad player, it's whether the club are desperate and acted accordingly. Strip out the football angle and look at the financials, like the club clearly has done, which is the basis of the posts.

The club will not sell domestically, to a rival. I agree with this sentiment and CBA doing it again. Fergie was the most recent author of this opinion (which is why the Glazers are doing it now) but it's been there since before him. You tell me, in the clubs history how many times have we bought a rivals player, how many have we sold to them. What's the ratio? Historically it has always been one way, in our favour. Heinze the most recent example, but anybody we have sold who we'd want to keep/ direct rivals would want have universally been abroad. Wilkins, Hughes (1st time), Ince, Stam, Beckham. Ronaldo Veron is the exception big name and money wise, but Chelsea weren't a rival at the time and the player absolutely wasn't wanted. Nor was he anything remotely like a success at Chelsea.

All I'll say is the second you start selling to a direct rival you turn yourself into Arsenal and are open to anybody leaving. You become weak with the players and opposition knowing that a bid will work, albeit a silly bid. Naturally everybody has a price, but selling Ronaldo for 80 million paid upfront is different to selling core players to City like Wenger has been forced into. Arsenal have often reinvested wisely after being spurned by mercenaries, but it's undeniable their progress is stunted by the departure of often greedy players. The second we start this is a rocky road.

No foreign club bid like Chelsea did at the start of the season. Had no deal been struck I think in the Summer somebody like PSG might have tried a cheeky 15 million pound deal.and offered him a wage comparable to what we have. Then again maybe not as they already have strikers. I believe if the foreign bid hadn't materialised the club would have allowed him to leave for free as opposed to sell to Chelsea.

So, like I say, pretend he doesn't sign, assume he goes and we get nothing. At best a piecemeal amount from some foreign club. We pay the new guy Rooneys old wage, so circa 200K. The difference between that and his new contract is about 20 million a year. Who do we buy for twenty million of comparable stature whilst paying him 200K?

You say don't replace him as you want the same system as me. Cool. Kagawa and Mata combined, in their best seasons, can't compare to the Rooney goal output. What if RVP gets hurt again? I'm sorry but Welbeck isn't an answer.

So you save the money, buy nobody. Tell me, which is more effective for Manchester Uniteds ability to win a game- having Wayne Rooney, or having 70 million sat in Glazers pocket that'll magically disappear over time? What use is the club having the Rooney money when really the club doesn't have the money as it'll get repatriated to whatever the Glazers next deem fit.

The club has the money to keep Rooney and buy new, so that angle isn't an argument either. The debt has virtually ceased to be an issue (in terms of the clubs ability to repay and the consequences if it doesn't) and is beyond manageable, doubly so when you consider new TV and shirt deals.

Some speculation:

- what if the players at Chelsea and City want parity with what Rooney is getting? Financially they can do this, FFP wise they can't.

- Rooney is immensely marketable despite what you and I think of him. If not replaced, what is worth more commercially wise. Having Rooney or having money in the Glazers pocket? Let's not be daft, we all know the club won't do something stupid like reduce ticket prices so don't contemplate that fantasy.

Ultimately though, jacking it in because of Rooney? Really? Like I said the other week 4th, 7th, 15th, who cares. It's all the same malaise of bullshit. I don't understand why a poor season, poor football and having a wanker in Rooney is a deal break when the club was fundamentally and irrevocably damaged in 2005 wasn't an end for you.

[bear]

That is half the picture. Everybody accepts that Liverpool have a weak squad, numbers wise. At times they have been near breaking point with injuries and suspension, particularly in defence. They have done well when Suarez was banned, Sturridge is scoring. When Sturridge is out, Suarez is playing. Coutinho has done well, as has Henderson.

However they haven't had to play Saturday-Wednesday-Sunday this season, outside of the hectic Xmas period like everybody else. This is because they weren't in Europe, they lost early in the League Cup. They did better in the FA Cup but until the 6th round (I think) they cancel the league games so unless you get a replay you aren't rearranging league games for that cup.

If they want to progress they'll need a bigger squad, undoubtedly. The quality of players they'll need will be CL quality, so £20M+ on at least 100K a week. No doubt there will be the odd bargain but they are more likely to be a miss than a hit, like with most managers. How are they going to fund these players? They'll get CL money but that is wiped out on one player. United will be bidding for the level of players they want and Utd will win out because they'll offer significantly more money. The players Liverpool do get will still be expensive, how do they fund this without the wage-turnover ratio increasing?

By focusing on increasing the commercial side of things much like United have recently. For better or worse Liverpools significant January signings were commercial deals with Vauxhall, Dunkin Donuts and Garuda Indonesia. If they get into the Champions league that improves the clubs ability to go get more commercial partners.

I doubt we'll see any £20million player joining Liverpool this summer largely because of the lack of squad depth you mention. If the club secures a place in the Champions League I think the most likely activity will be trying to secure 3 £10-15million players with one in each third of the pitch plus an attempt to sign Martin Montoya with an eye to shipping out Johnson and his wages.

Either way, United should still start next season seen as stronger contenders than Liverpool. That's assuming they don't get blinded chasing big names like I felt they did last summer.

[Stig]

This post isn't grounded in reality. Chelsea and City haven't made any inroads on Uniteds popularity nor profitability, especially when you strip out false self sponsorship scams like the Etihad Airways deal.

Im talking in the long run. United became

huge overseas and with kids born in the 80/90s because of their success (very much like Liverpool for kids born in the 60/70s). If United continues fail and the likes of City and Chelsea dominate over the next 20 years like United did, the tide will change, especially in Asia were they're very fickle on who they support.

United have the biggest shirt sponsorship in the league despite the deal being 13 years old. In 18 months time it'll be the biggest in the world when renegotiated and at least double what the second place English club receive. Hell, the club are paid more for the training kit sponsorship than 75% of the league receive for their main shirt sponsorship.

Eh? You haven't been with AIG for 13 years. Your kit makers deal isn't even the best in the country, ours is and next year Arsenals will be.

The club comfortably has the biggest attendance (coupled with expensive tickets and rip off ACS deals), the biggest commercial arm in the country by far.

Yeah, having the biggest stadium will do that.

I mean literally everything Spurs and Liverpool do, United do it at least double. Attendance, turnover, shirt deals, commercial deals.

Again, how can you compare attendance when one stadium is bigger than the other. Clearly you don't know about all the commercial deals done at Liverpool since FSG took over. Not to mention, as I've said our kit deal deal being worth more than yours.

These factors are not going away as the club is, and always be, the biggest in England.

Very much how Liverpool would be following the 70s and 80s?

The fact is years of underinvestment will be altered and significant money has been and will be spent. The question is will the money be spent correctly, but I know for a fact Utd will get players ahead of Spurs and Liverpool no matter where the teams finish this year. Years and years and years of financial dominance will not come to an end because of one season.

No one knows what the next 20 years hold. No one is saying 1 season will ruin you, but what if United find themselves winning nothing and out of the CL more? You know nothing for a fact, no one does.

[bowser123]

Eh? You haven't been with AIG for 13 years. Your kit makers deal isn't even the best in the country, ours is and next year Arsenals will be.

Again, how can you compare attendance when one stadium is bigger than the other. Clearly you don't know about all the commercial deals done at Liverpool since FSG took over. Not to mention, as I've said our kit deal deal being worth more than yours.

AON is Utd's shirt sponsor, not AIG. Next season it's Chevrolet. The new shirt deal added £11.6m pa for two years (on top of what AON pay) and then a further £11.9m pa (for a total of £43.5m pa) from the 2014/15 season.

Except the Warrior deal isn't bigger than the current Nike deal. Poor reporting only mentions the initial deal of circa 21m a season. For the past 5 years there have been step ups so the deal was worth 21 when it started, became 23 in 2010. It is now the current 25.3M a season. I understand why you are unaware of this, because like I say poor reporting always mentions the wrong figure. This is all evidenced in the clubs figures that are available under the PLC days and now available again since the IPO. This is because Nike share the profits with United and the % has increased over time.

I checked Arsenal. I thought Puma was starting in 15/16, it's not it's 14/15. So you are right, for one season Arsenal will receive nearly 5 million more than Utd. Around that time we'll know what Utd will receive in 15/16. The current tender is being spoke about being above fifty million a season.

You tell me, who in England gets anything like 20m a season, for 8 seasons, purely for having the training ground and training kit hold the sponsors name?

[Guest]

-aehii

Look dude, you're preaching to the converted on Rooney. I despise the greedy, self serving bastard and wanted rid of him first time round, I wanted rid 10 months ago when it all reared up again. He is wildly over rated and absolutely isn't worth the cash. He has extended periods of time where his form is dreadful, a situation that often comes about because he is weak mentally and his regular off the field antics exacerbate the situation. I think he is deeply unprofessional. I've said I think he's done better this year because of factors that aren't present the next- world cup, contract and transfer talk. He knew he had to get fit and try harder but this doesn't exist in 6 months time.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

Cutting insight.

[Ork1927]

Hi gents - would you like Zaha back?

Not sure if he was already broken when we took delivery or if we've dropped him - but he doesn't appear to work properly.

He is like watching someone playing FIFA who can do all the special moves quite well, but sometimes has to stop and read the instructions on which button is shoot, which is long pass and which is not get easily knocked off the ball.

He got subbed at half time today.

You can also have Fabio back as well if you'd like.

And Solskjaer

[Gabzy]

We won a game! Yay.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

Lol no Mata or Januzaj.

De Gea; Smalling, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra; Valencia, Carrick, Cleverley, Young; Rooney, van Persie.

[Prof Frink]

Mata's cup-tied, your right about Januzai though.

[Guest]

Januzaj isn't even on the bench. Good one David.

[AlwaysBeClosing]

Aye that slipped my mind. We have a long old break until the next game as well. Fellaini out as well? Thought it'd make sense to use him against Olympiakos..

[paddyo]

Ball bags

[Gabzy]

Brilliant!

[feltmonkey]

Great. We've set up to bore a 0-0 out of this game and now we're 1-0 down with no creative players on the pitch. Classic Moyes.

[sith]

That goal felt inevtiable. Dire team selection and we get what we deserve.

[angel]

keane is so annoyed I can't understand a word he's saying

[Gabzy]

Cleverley's been amazing so far, hasn't he?

[ManLikeColonel]

Cleverley's been amazing so far, hasn't he?

I wish I could find all the quotes where these lot were practically sucking his dick, and Welbeck and Carrick...

HAHAHAHAHA Cleverley, they said...

[Rockboy]

Smalling and Valencia are having absolute shockers. Closely followed by Cleverley and Ferdinand. Where's Jones and Rafael and Fletcher?

[feltmonkey]

So, anyone else looking forward to the World Cup?

[sith]

Any other team and Moyes would be sacked after this, and rightly so. Embarassing yet again.

[Gabzy]

There are actually just no words for how shit we are right now. I reckon my nan could probably score a goal against us tonight.

[Lucky]

keane is so annoyed I can't understand a word he's saying

Potato Potato

[exwhyzed]

Any other team and Moyes would be sacked after this, and rightly so. Embarassing yet again.

Any other team would have sacked him in December. Never mind now. If he's still in the job after this it's a joke.

[feltmonkey]

If we can score and the game finishes 2-1 we would still have a decent chance of progressing. The way things are looking though we wouldn't score if the game went on indefinitely.