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The old Man Utd Thread

ThePixelbarks

By ThePixelbarks
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Gringo

Gringo

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Why the fuck did we spend 40 million on a player only for him to replace our best player so far this season?

I can't fathom that myself. It just doesn't make any sense to me on any level. If anything Mata wants/needs to play in the number 10 slot which Rooney seems to have an iron grasp on. If it has done anything it has stopped United's best wide player playing in his accomplished positioned and force Mata to play in a role to which he is not best suited.

I know it's early doors but if it were to continue Mata is going to become Kagawa Mark II, the 37 million pound version.

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Loik V credern

Loik V credern

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I know it's early days for him and all, but wasn't everybody (Man U and non-Man U fans alike) asking how exactly Mata would fit in before you bought him?

More just that Moyes wouldn't have a clear idea of how to use him, more just a 'he'll help with the much needed creativity in the final third', like that is exactly what pundits/journalists/him has said.

I'd happily drop Rooney and play Mata as the no10. The odd great cross/free kick/tracking back tackle aside, i don't like Rooney for much. The kind of pass Mata delivered to Van Persie is the type Rooney couldn't do. His cross was great though. If he wanted to be a midfielder, like applied himself to it, then I'd prefer that. But he doesn't.

It doesn't matter. It makes no difference. It's still clinging onto the desperate hope that individuals will dig the team out of a hole, as opposed to gelling together and doing it as a unit. Any other player just fits into the same system (i don't just mean formation) and there is no change or improvement.

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Stig

Stig

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You guys think he's worth £300k a week though or that does it come across as desperation for United as they need to keep one of its top players.

I think that with the rumours of RVP leaving (I don't think he will), it's good business sense to get Rooney locked in and give the club a lift. But £300k per week? That's rather a lot considering he's not on the level of other footballers on that scale.

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Loik V credern

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You guys think he's worth £300k a week though or that does it come across as desperation for United as they need to keep one of its top players.

I think that with the rumours of RVP leaving (I don't think he will), it's good business sense to get Rooney locked in and give the club a lift. But £300k per week? That's rather a lot considering he's not on the level of other footballers on that scale.

I assumed the lack of talk is because it's so mind bendingly stupid that no one feels the need to mention it or point it out ? I see no benefit whatsoever beyond the 'we must not sell to rivals it'll make us look weak [oh no]' thing, the logic which i don't understand and the reality being so warped. The logic being that somehow perception matters, and the reality being that Rooney is 28 and this season has had more to play for than any other season in his career, to be fit and in good form for the upcoming World Cup, play for a new contract, or a new club, or to win over a new manager and prove his worth after that same manager said 'yeah my feeling on Wayne is..if anything happens to Van Persie...' I think he's been average this season, his goals/assists stats to be fair aren't average, he is a better assister now, his crossing and long passing are his best asset, although he can go a whole game and struggle to pass to Van Persie more than 5 times. People overlook Welbeck has scored 8 goals in the league this season. And has played 614 minutes less than him.

It's basically just really desperate. People who say 'well, it's a lot of money but if you sell him you'd only have to buy someone else anyway' break my mind, like Mata and Kagawa aren't already there waiting to take his place. If the plan is to let Van Persie leave and play Rooney up front...then...I still despise Rooney, his delusion at his decline, his arrogance to believe he deserves more, and his unprofessionalism and generally awful behaviour, never justified by his performances at all. This is not a player [like Suarez] playing on the edge, so utterly committed and desperate to win at all costs, Rooney is just petulant and self serving. When things don't go his way he screams at the ref, he doesn't improve his focus.

I don't even need to factor in that he held the club to ransom, as other united fans do, as the primary reason he should leave. Just purely all the above and that you have probably the humblest, purest, nicest, most professional two players vying for the position he takes on the pitch and who one who never got his chance and another who likely now never will. I find that most galling.

I'd have also liked to have seen him at another club too, just to see.

It's not good business. That's 70m in a period of no Champions League money. For a player who no club can or would want to afford. Being paid so much that his position inn the team is guaranteed, his incentive disappears, as does the chance for those two genuine no10s either rotting on the bench or sharing the wing. repeatrepeatrepeat. I might just try to ignore the games for a while. It riles me. Back in 4 years.

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bowser123

bowser123

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I assumed the lack of talk is because it's so mind bendingly stupid that no one feels the need to mention it or point it out ? I see no benefit whatsoever beyond the 'we must not sell to rivals it'll make us look weak [oh no]' thing, the logic which i don't understand and the reality being so warped.

Personally I didn't post as it's not new or unexpected, it's not exciting news nor does it make me angry, and I can't get arsed by the figures involved. I mean obviously it's an insane amount in the real world, but football lives in it's own bubble and that figure is nothing new, it's nothing special in the grand scheme given the profile of the club. .

I agree with the gist and sentiment of the post but disagree with some fundamentals of it.

Anyway. Sorry to do the selective quoting thing:

It's not good business. That's 70m in a period of no Champions League money. For a player who no club can or would want to afford. Being paid so much that his position inn the team is guaranteed, his incentive disappears, as does the chance for those two genuine no10s either rotting on the bench or sharing the wing. repeatrepeatrepeat.

It's not particularly good business but it'd be bad business to sell and not replace, especially if the only option is selling domestically. The owners are parasites but not stupid, they absolutely will have done the sums for the alternatives and this will be the most cost effective result for them.

If you believe he's going from 250k to 300k, then the difference between his old contract and his new is about twenty million..Which I don't believe at face value as I don't think he was on the former and won't be on the latter. It'll be heavily incentive based and targets will have to be met to get that amount. But those are the figures we have.

Assuming we buy a player, give him the circa 200K for 5 years, who could we get for about 20m that'd have the same standing in the game, pull and power? You'd say we got RVP for that, but only Arsenal are stupid enough to get themselves into that position were an asset worth double that can leave for a rival for half his market value. I agree he aint all that, but his name is bigger than his consistency but that's two massive players in a row in Mata and RVP who have spoke only about fatty and how excited they are to play with him. He has a star power and pull.

Financially the club is stronger than it's ever been, though it took a potential club wrecking risk from parasite owners and a wizard manager to pull it off. As it is the club is now financially better than ever though at the cost of being irrevocably scarred.

Assume we make Europa, that we make it past the group stage of it. The difference between making the stage we are at now in the CL Vs that scenario is about 20 million in lost revenue. The evaporation of the big TV money is the big loss, but we'll play more games (meaning more gate money), the players won't get the bonuses the CL entails. You have to remember we have the biggest shirt deal in England despite it being 13 years old and it's going to get doubled to at least 60M a season in 24 months time. The club has posted record results, they continue to draw new commercial deals and pays a fraction in debt repayments to what it once did. As a one off, or even twice in a row not making the CL is of no real concern. If it is repeated then the issue is a massive concern but the odds are stacked so heavily in our favour that it'll be a feat to achieve this.

You think the Champions League none qualification thing is going to be repeated for the foreseeable? I disagree. We will have much bigger pull than Liverpool and Spurs and simply buy the better players ahead of them, most likely finishing ahead of them at the very least in the future. I also think we have a bigger pull than Arsenal, especially when they are reticent to spend at the very highest level and can financially smash them and over bid for players ahead of them. "They have CL football" is the big cry- so what? CL football for 8 games maximum and no guarantee of repeating it the season after. Both Spuds and Scouse have atrocious Euro coefficient ratings and will be lucky to make pot 3, more likely be in pot 4.

Because of the big team fix they'll definitely get a giant- Barca/Madrid/Munich etc. They'll almost certainly get a 2nd or 3rd place team from the big countries because of the sheer number of teams from England and Spain from pot 2, something guaranteed if they draw say PSG. Throw in the stupidity of the likes of Dortmund and Napoli being rated so low and there's a possibility the pot three team will be a big game too. You add into the mix that Scouse barely have a squad to compete this season without being at breaking point on occasions. All they are playing for is 4th and they simply won't be able to play Saturday-Wednesday-Sunday like Mourinho points out. What will the extra thirty million from the CL qualification buy them?

You talk of desperation. Scouse guy above you said the same too.

Desperation is giving a player in Suarez 200K- that is a fee that smashes their wage structure, that takes them above 70% for their ratio of wages to turnover. That figure is dangerously close to being unmanageable. They took a risk and gambled but the figure is unsustainable unless they can guarantee a CL income beyond the group stages, unless they can finally build the stadium. They'll need more CL quality players for the squad to compete but that brings a cost, and when they've raised the bar for themselves so high I don't think they can afford numerous players at near Suarez levels. Their desperation comes in the need of offering insane money (compared to their revenue) in the hope of progressing.

.

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bear

bear

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I think you are overestimating Liverpools wages to turnover ratio. They were unquestionably around the 70% mark at the end of the 2011-2012 season but the ratio has gotten healthier since then.

They aren't going to compete with the likes of Man Utd financially anytime soon but the current wage level is sustainable.

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Charliemouse

Charliemouse

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Also the one time Spurs; and please don't use the word Spuds, if just makes you sound like a teenage boy, made the Champions League, they were in pot 3 and ended up winning the group.

I don't think it will be easy as you think getting back into the top 4 especially if you keep Moyes as your manager and I can see you struggling for a few seasons, just like Liverpool did when they dropped out of it.

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bowser123

bowser123

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I think you are overestimating Liverpools wages to turnover ratio. They were unquestionably around the 70% mark at the end of the 2011-2012 season but the ratio has gotten healthier since then.

They aren't going to compete with the likes of Man Utd financially anytime soon but the current wage level is sustainable.

That is half the picture. Everybody accepts that Liverpool have a weak squad, numbers wise. At times they have been near breaking point with injuries and suspension, particularly in defence. They have done well when Suarez was banned, Sturridge is scoring. When Sturridge is out, Suarez is playing. Coutinho has done well, as has Henderson.

However they haven't had to play Saturday-Wednesday-Sunday this season, outside of the hectic Xmas period like everybody else. This is because they weren't in Europe, they lost early in the League Cup. They did better in the FA Cup but until the 6th round (I think) they cancel the league games so unless you get a replay you aren't rearranging league games for that cup.

If they want to progress they'll need a bigger squad, undoubtedly. The quality of players they'll need will be CL quality, so £20M+ on at least 100K a week. No doubt there will be the odd bargain but they are more likely to be a miss than a hit, like with most managers. How are they going to fund these players? They'll get CL money but that is wiped out on one player. United will be bidding for the level of players they want and Utd will win out because they'll offer significantly more money. The players Liverpool do get will still be expensive, how do they fund this without the wage-turnover ratio increasing?

Also the one time Spurs; and please don't use the word Spuds, if just makes you sound like a teenage boy, made the Champions League, they were in pot 3 and ended up winning the group.

That was a one off aberration of a group. With United being out another country will be seeded in pot 1 so you have a bigger chance of drawing a bigger club. In the past you couldn't draw Chelsea/ City, United or Arsenal because of country protection. This time it's 6/8. What happened when Spurs played a decent team in that run, a giant in not just name but quality?

Barca, Madrid, Munich, Chelsea, Arsenal will definitely be pot 1. PSG are a dominant force and will possibly be there, they will wipe out a poor score from 5 years ago and replace it with a better one this. I think they'll be just short of pot 1 but I see them going semi final far this year. If not them it'll be a Portugese team.

England will lose a third seeded pot 1 place (United), Spain will gain it in Atletico. You then have the choice of a lower French or German team, maybe Italian.

So at best Spurs are hoping for a 1/8, maybe 2/8 optimal draw that they get the Portugese team if it's not PSG making the cut or the lower German/French/ Italian that made the final place. Of course it's 1 or 2 in 6 as they can't have Chelsea or Arsenal.

Spurs will finish second at best, likely draw a group winning giant and be eliminated. This is the exact problem City have in that they can't build the coefficient because they get tough groups, they can't win the group so they can't build the score.

This is why the CL is fixed- Arsenal and United will continue to get seeded despite poor knockout results at QF stage in recent years. They are seeded and get easy groups (almost always, though not this time for Arsenal) so will almost always make the knockouts, usually as group winners and get an easier draw against the group runner up.

It's self perpetuating too- the seeded clubs are near guaranteed to get further, so they get more money that they can spend to improve over both their domestic upcoming rivals and be able to outspend the 3rd place club in France/Germany/Space they are in competition with for the position of being group winner.

I don't think it will be easy as you think getting back into the top 4 especially if you keep Moyes as your manager and I can see you struggling for a few seasons, just like Liverpool did when they dropped out of it.

This season for United is a culmination of issues that go beyond just Moyes and his tactics, of Fergie. It's a culmination of those issues and a lack of investment in the past, players not performing this time, injuries, to an extent luck. The solution will be spending on an unprecedented (for Glazer) level. This has been confirmed by the club not to the media but to investors, in the form of the Rooney wage and the Mata transfer.

The fact is Liverpool lose out on players to Spurs, Spurs lose out to Chelsea. This happens despite the move to say Liverpool or Spurs making more sense if you go along with the thought of players move for game time. Players move for money and United will easily outspend, outbid and out muscle either pretender. Players United want to keep will not leave this Summer. Whereas Liverpool and Spurs lost players on nearly every single occasion they didn't make the grade, often their best. Modric, Bale recently, Carrick in the past. Alonso, Mascherano, Torres.

You're making out United are a million miles off 4th. They've had an unfathomably bad season and have never looked like winning the league. The decline has been unprecedented yet despite this up until about three league games ago there was every chance they'd make 4th. Wipe out a handful of bad decisions/luck whatever and they'd have say 6 or 7 more points and the we wouldn't be having the none CL qualification discussion with such assurance. I don't believe next will have any chance of being as bad as this, Moyes or no Moyes.

Of course I've previously already said I personally don't give a fuck about fixed, boring CL group football, that finishing 4th or 7th is irrelevant (unless perpetual) as both finishes are shite but that isn't the discussion. It's pretty pathetic that finishing 4th is even an issue and systematic of a competition that is nothing about competition and everything about retaining the status quo and their revenue. Because, if they didn't, they know the likes of Utd, Madrid and Munich would just form their own "Euro Super League" and fuck the CL off altogether.

I mean this is a competition where points are weighted so a win for United (English) is worth more than a win for Celtic (Scottish) because one country has a higher weighted score due to previous years results. Which is self perpetuating because Arsenal get seeded despite finishing 4th, Celtic get pot 4 despite winning the league for the 867th time and nothing changes because the English side has the dominant money from winning the easier group.

It's impossible to break the stranglehold unless you do a City, or a Chelsea, or a PSG. The response to these upstarts? Financial fair play to maintain the status quo of the established elite.

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Stig

Stig

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Id just like to point out that Mascherano, Torres and Alonso didn't leave because we "didn't make the grade". Alonso left after we finished 2nd, the other 2 left because H&G were a bunch of con men who promised them things and never followed through on them. H&G (and Rafa with Alonso) were the main driving force behind them leaving.

Of course offering Suarez more money was desperation on our part, I can admit that but that's because we nearly lost him, we had to lock him down and get a better release cause in his contract. Twice now Rooney has held United to ransom and twice now they've rolled over and offerend him a stupid wage to keep him.

For your sakes, you better hope you don't start finishing out the top 4 more often because eventually the name "Man United" won't be enough to draw the top players in. The more times you don't qualify for CL, the more money you didn't gain, the more stocks will drop and the more international "fans" will turn to the big money spenders like City and Chelsea (like they already are).

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