The old Man Utd Thread

[Gabe]

I very much doubt Moyes will be going anywhere soon, and I don't think he should. This isn't what I thought after the game yesterday, mind. I guess the biggest worry is that there doesn't appear to be any improvement recently, and then come the end of the season are we going to let him invest a big chunk of money.

In realistic terms I think he needs 2-3 years before he's judged. It's just so difficult, as a fan to be that patient when we turn in performances like the one yesterday and in recent weeks.

In regards to yesterdays game, the amount of crosses was crazy but the amount of poor crosses was much more annoying. The space was out wide, and we got the byline plenty but the deliver was just really really bad. I also can't believe we got caught out at the end with not enough people back in defence. Another goal conceded in the space left by Valencia while playing at right fullback. That must have happened 4-5 times now?

Arsenal is a HUGE game for Moyes now.

Why is Arsenal a huge game if, as you say, he isn't likely to be going anywhere regardless?

[feltmonkey]

I agree with the idea that we should give him two or three years in principle. We don't want to be one of those clubs that's always sacking their manager, that chops and changes on a whim. We know we need to be patient, and accepting of the fact that there will be a period of transition, and look to the long term.

However this season went from being transitional to disastrous some time ago. Even this would be acceptable if there was some underlying philosophy that Moyes was making the players adapt to, but there isn't. This isn't like Brenden Rogers' first season at Liverpool where the results were bad but you could see them working towards something. The nearest thing to a philosophy Moyes has bought is a general sense of negativity and fear, and a general predictability. We get it wide and cross it. We're completely one-dimensional.

What's worse is that the players seemingly don't want to play for him. When that happens a manager is fucked. Rumours abound about RVP wanting out, being upset that the manager who signed him, who he was hoping would help him win things has retired and left him with a guy who clearly isn't going to win anything in the near future. It's understandable actually. All the players must feel a bit like that. It's their careers that would be affected if this fallow period drags on. In Fergie's book he says that footballers will forgive you murder if you help them win things. The opposite must also be true. They don't trust him.

I must come across as a doom and gloom merchant, but I'm really not. A period when we slip backwards would not be the end of the world, but I do love watching United, I want them to win, and I wish it would be a bit more entertaining at the moment, or a bit less depressing at least! To be fair yesterday's match was pretty entertaining, albeit for all the wrong reasons.

[ckny]

It's alright guys, Fellaini will be back soon. Then we'll someone big to get on the end of the crosses!

[whizzo]

with Van Persie its a matter of when not if he leaves. He is only with you guys for success. Hes left both teams he proffesed to support growing up search of success.

[exwhyzed]

Where would he go though

[Guest]

Where would he go though

Chelsea,

Arsenal,

City,

Liverpool,

Tottenham

or Everton?

[bowser123]

As a PLC, I'm not sure the shareholders would share those views.

Except the club isn't a PLC to all extents and purposes. Less than 10% was floated and they where sold a different class of shares that are worth considerably less than those that the Glazers hold- infact they shareholders combined possess less than 3% of voting rights. What the shareholders think is irrelevant, it's the commercial arm which is all important to the parasites and performing better than ever.

Are you honestly saying that we should stick with an inept manager just to spite the fans? That the club should be used as some kind of punishment because we've got used to being one of the best? That they should let us slip down the table to give us entitled, undeserving fans some perspective, rather than strive to be the best? Seems a bit harsh.

Personally I think we should continue to aim for the top. I want to see us battling it out with the best teams domestically and across Europe. And to do that I think we need to replace Moyes at the end of the season.

The club hasn't aimed for the top since it last won the European Cup. Europe especially is a joke if you think we've competed, we've been soundly beaten by virtually every decent team since Moscow. Sure we reached the final twice before being destroyed, but I make it 2 English clubs as the sum total of decent teams we've beat. Even that is pushing it as Arsenal where far from great when we beat them. I mean schooled by Bilbao anyone?

Since then it's been simply make do and do as best as you can with limited (for the clubs stature) resources with the culmination being the current mess we now realise without a wizard in charge. The club has seen a steady supply of top players leave for various reasons and they simply have not been replaced. Is Moyes that bad, or did we underestimate just how good Ferguson was? What I do know is it's a fairy tale to make out the football now is worse than it was under the end of Fergies regime.

The funny thing is despite how good Ferguson was and how legendary he is, he's also the reason why it's now so bad (horse spunk equalling years of under investment) and how it'll unlikely change anytime soon (he picked and backed the Moyes personally, he endlessly speaks of the stupidity of replacing managers, he likely played a massive part in 6 year contracts).

To think what it'll take is the Glazers ignoring Ferguson and acting against his wishes, something that mere months ago would cause outrage but seemingly now is what the fans want.

Most of all though I just think it's a bit of a shame that more people seemingly care now about finishing 7th and drawing to Fulham than they did in 2005. Oh well.

[feltmonkey]

Most of all though I just think it's a bit of a shame that more people seemingly care now about finishing 7th and drawing to Fulham than they did in 2005. Oh well.

what do you mean? what are you basing this perception on, for a start? this thread didn't exist in 2005, and i don't see why anyone would be bringing that year up now. is it a general feeling you have that people are somehow more perturbed now? well, perhaps with good reason - this time in 2005 we were 2nd, having just beaten Arsenal 4-2 at highbury (even O'Shea scored, with a memorable chip.) i can't see the comparison or relevance. perhaps i have misunderstood?

[Rev]

You're clearly going to win on Wednesday. If a betting shop could allow me to put a tenner on "Man Utd win in a manner that leaves everyone grumpy and unsatisfied" I would.

I didn't see all of your game against Fulham, but it was horrifying. It was, as their jolly happy 6'7 defender said, like watching a conference team. Obviously RVP and Rooney can get on a cross, but it's not like it's their speciality.

If I was the chairman I'd have fired Moyes at half-time. Interviews aside (which are the low point of verbal communication so far), he's seemed alright to an outsider, bad, but those tactics were almost disrespectful, let alone bad.

You'll still win on Wednesday though, so he'll not be fired any time soon.

[bowser123]

what do you mean? what are you basing this perception on, for a start? this thread didn't exist in 2005, and i don't see why anyone would be bringing that year up now. is it a general feeling you have that people are somehow more perturbed now? well, perhaps with good reason - this time in 2005 we were 2nd, having just beaten Arsenal 4-2 at highbury (even O'Shea scored, with a memorable chip.) i can't see the comparison or relevance. perhaps i have misunderstood?

You most certainly have misunderstood, what I'm on about has nothing to do with on the field and everything to do about what happened off. It's a shame that 2005 stands out for that outrageous goal and not what really mattered but then again maybe that's just an example of what I'm on about. Incidentally I'm not really on about this thread but perception in general and where people lay the blame. Though there was a United thread in 2005, sure of it. Think it got deleted when accidentally merged with the Liverpool one or something.

This season, 4th, 7th, whatever, what difference does it make really? It's first or nothing, though really you can't win it every year so a proper fight and 2nd is acceptable. But 4th, so what, what difference does it make than 6th, 7th or whatever? All that gets you is a load of boring, fixed* matches against dross that aren't even from Europe sometimes, games only made semi interesting if you play pathetically enough that the last games matter. It only gets going in February, and even then only if you did badly enough and finished second in the group. After that it's elimination because all the fixing for TV ratings and guaranteed revenue is stripped away and we get battered by a decent team.

* Fixed in the sense that seeding, country separation, groups are only there to ensure the biggest remain and they all get a massive amount of TV money before the competition starts 7 games later in the knockout round.

[Guest]

Fourth gets you Champions League football and all the prestige, recognition and riches to attract better (mercenaries) players, that come with it.

[The Fox]

Arsenal,

[davidcotton]

Fourth gets you Champions League football and all the prestige, recognition and riches to attract better (mercenaries) players, that come with it.

Ask Everton fans how well that worked out for them that time they got fourth

[little che]

I've been a Utd fan for a long, long time (I remember the 1977 cup final), and saw my first game in 1981 or 82 (Norman white sides debut!). What United have always had is a certain flair that, in the 80s at least was as likely to lead to a loss as a win. Obviously it's not worth mentioning the Fergie era because anyone can support a team when they are as successful as we have been, but even before then, when Big Ron was manager, and try as we might, we couldn't break down the Liverpool domination, hell Everton were far better than us, we had players who would get you out of your seat (strachan, Olsen, whiteside) and a hair em scare em approach. But now, there is no joy in watching us, and I don't mean the losses or the grinding disappointment, it's the unending pragmatic approach that is boring, frustrating and inflexible.

Moyes will go, whether its this week, the end of the season or the end of next. He's a decent man, desperate to succeed, and I wish him no harm, but he's the wrong man, and nothing but nothing will change that.

[Guest]

Ask Everton fans how well that worked out for them that time they got fourth

Haha, oh yeah. It was Liverpool that dicked them by winning the Champions League, wasn't it?

Anyway, as of next season the top 5 teams get through. If only it was this season, we would have still had something to play for.

[redbloodcell]

5 teams can qualify, not will. It's only so the EL winners getting a CL spot won't jeopardise big clubs losing a place really.

[Chooch]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/tom-cleverley-interview-scapegoat-midfielder-3132365

From this article it seems Cleverly thinks his job is to pass sideways? This and the Fletcher quotes a few days ago really hit home the stink that is our midfield at the minute and how they are being (and have been) coached.

[Trigg]

Why is Arsenal a huge game if, as you say, he isn't likely to be going anywhere regardless?

Because I don't think he's going anyway or shouldn't be going anywhere doesn't mean he's won't be. If its another defeat, especially a bad one then the pressure will mount even more, thats when owners make rash decisions.

Arsenal is a huge game for Moyes regardless of him getting sacked or not.

Edit

Following on from my earlier post, I forgot to mention that playing Mata out wide in such a rigid formation really pisses me off. I didn't post on Sunday following the game as I like to wait and calm down but I was massively pissed off with that.

Mata could find himself in a situation similar to Kagawa before him, we're signing the right kind of player but not utilising them in the proper way. I guess Rooney and RvP are the 'problems' here.

What do people think? How would you like us to line up with the current crop against Arsenal for example?

[The Fox]

You're playing a guy a 10 who literally doesn't pass to your guy at 9. That's a rather large problem.

[Trigg]

I think we're playing a 10 who's better as a number 9, but many prefer as a 10.

It's all a bit daft at the moment.

[The Fox]

Rooney is way better as a No9, surely. He drops so deep at 10 and his link play with the 9 is demonstrably terrible, at least right now.

[Timmo]

Would anyone argue that Man U's potential strongest line up doesn't include RVP and has Rooney in front of Mata with Januzaj and A.N.other (preferably an in-form Nani)?

[Baring]

On paper it's a world class attack. On paper.

[bowser123]

Would anyone argue that Man U's potential strongest line up doesn't include RVP and has Rooney in front of Mata with Januzaj and A.N.other (preferably an in-form Nani)?

No, because RVP is a miles better finisher than Rooney.

Whilst he might not be as accomplished a footballer as him on Rooneys best days, Persie doesn't suffer terrible drops in performance level that sees him barely able to control a ball like Rooney does. Persie is also a model professional in comparison, with Rooney he's one adverse media story away from another month or three of none performances and kicking out. We'll see but I reckon post new contract, no World Cup and probably a shambles of an England performance Rooney won't appear half as motivated next season.

In general though, yeah, play those front 4 like you say. The thing is it's the exact same discussion and problem as last season. Sure the players are different (replace Mata with Kagawa) yet it never really got off the ground as it wasn't given a chance. Nobody had an answer to playing Rooney/Kagawa/RVP that didn't waste somebody (Kagawa on the wing), or reduced Rooney to midfield or out wide that saw him moan. So instead you had the concessions or simply not playing Kagawa at all. This time Mata won't be dropped like Kagawa was, but he'll probably continue to be wasted.

I think the solution was sell the detestable, ransoming bastard and build around a proper creative player but it isn't happening. It's partly down to an obsession with wingers and crossing, an idea that it's in the ethos of the club that we must play like that with two wingers and overlapping fullbacks. Just listen to Neville on Sunday, just read Fletcher describing how unimportant midfield is viewed by Ferguson that we'll seemingly play the same formation for evermore.

[MojoChin]

Would anyone argue that Man U's potential strongest line up doesn't include RVP and has Rooney in front of Mata with Januzaj and A.N.other (preferably an in-form Nani)?

The RVP who has scored 19 in 23 appearances this year even though he hasn't been at it? That RVP? No, I can't say I agree with you.

I don't think the issue is with the players that are playing, but the tactics they are playing under. RVP will always get goals regardless of how well he is generally playing and we need that right now. I don't think there is a many other front 4s in the world that should be able to compete with what we can put out, so there is something going wrong in how they are managed.

[Timmo]

Wasn't Rooney scoring at a similar rate to RVP when he was played as striker, though?

I'm not saying I'd personally choose the line-up I said, I'm just wondering on its potential and playing Devil's advocate. It's strange how Rooney wasn't played as striker when RVP was out, with Kagawa behind. Or was that tried? I haven't been watching closely.

[bowser123]

Rooney was out broadly around the same time as Van Persie but generally played behind Welbeck for the odd games he featured and Persie didn't. Kagawa hasn't had a kick really outside of Europe, where he generally has been played more centrally and done reasonably well. League wise it's been as a winger then subbed off due to ineffectiveness. Maybe 5 league starts or something for him?

Like I say it's not really Devils advocate, we wanted the system you proposed last season, didn't happen. Until there is a system change and probably omission, be it Rooney or RVP, it won't alter either.

Think it also doesn't help we don't have two strong, mobile central midfielders like City as theoretically Rooney/Aguero, Mata/Silva, with two skillful players in Januzaj and Nani to their Navas could be comparable to how they line up in both style and quality.

[Trigg]

If Moyes can get Rooney, Van Persie, Mata and Januzaj into the side, which is balanced then fair play to him. I just don't know how you do it as it means Mata or Rooney playing (wasting) out of position.

Not read that Fletcher interview before, I think it's alright to rely on the more talented attacking players and let your midfield do the donkey work so to speak. That said they're not doing that particular well at the moment, and I think the biggest problem as been getting the ball to the those attacking players in better areas.

[The Fox]

Rooney seems to have been getting glowing reviews for bombing about the place trying to take on the whole world. I just don't get it. Playing a No10 and him providing 2-3 passes per game to the centre forward is absolutely unforgivable, even if you are playing primarily from the wings.

Jack Wilshere is also prone to this and was at it big time on Saturday. It was a big reason why we got humped 5-1, and yet he was getting praise in the commentary for "At least looking like he cares". Meanwhile as he's trying to take on the entire Liverpool XI single-handed, poor old Mikel Arteta is getting buttfucked over and over again. And in his younger days we all know Steven Gerrard used to like haring around the pitch like a loon, and only seemed to be properly harnessed when Benitez gave him a free role behind Torres. All the while he had pundits left right and centre getting into a flap about how he should be playing in central midfield.

Is it a coincidence they're all English I wonder?

[bowser123]

Not read that Fletcher interview before, I think it's alright to rely on the more talented attacking players and let your midfield do the donkey work so to speak. That said they're not doing that particular well at the moment, and I think the biggest problem as been getting the ball to the those attacking players in better areas.

It's harking back 10 years and repetition but what about when the talented players aren't performing or absent? In the past you'd have players like Keane, Robson and Ince driving forward and creating something by their drive and desire, almost sheer will. They'd create something or get the crowd going from a strong tackle. Yeah we don't have Keane or Robson, no there isn't anybody as good. But you know we could have bought Dembele and had some drive, we could have bought X, Y and Z and been immeasurably better centrally these past years.

Where Chelsea the best team when they won in Europe? Na, does that mean we will repeat their feat? Nah, because we don't have any strong players, people with character who'll stand up and take command like they do. We have no leadership at all. It's always pass the buck with this team and has been for years.

Instead, what we have is two players, who are often inferior to the opposition, against their three. Fletcher admits the manager recognised the numerical disadvantage yet did nothing. That's what I took from it anyway, rather than a discussion on water carriers and the lack of appreciation. I think Carrick is the clubs most important player and was as pivotal as Persie in winning last year, so he doesn't go unrecognised. That doesn't stop me thinking the mentality of the midfield being there to make up the numbers and pass it square is OK.

What absolutely doesn't help, and has been picked up in here, is how resigned Moyes is to the situation. Ferguson spoke an awful load of shite but his demonstrative media interviews coupled with his siege mentality made us appear combative and spiky. Right now we're a soft touch waiting to be bullied, we'll start well and wilt under a setback. He's right we've been unlucky, he's right we've generally been on the end of bad decisions. He's also told the truth and admitted the finishing has been woeful at times, that we've been scandalously bad at others.

But so what, I think I want some fight from him even if it is just bluster. I'm sick of seeing Moyes with his head in his hands, or his hands in his pockets, talking about luck and being the better team and deserving to win. We don't know what his team talks are like but his press conferences are uninspiring. The players have no confidence and I don't think he's helping. What got me was that Sunderland game in pre shootout, with the managers on the pitch- Moyes, hands in pockets in that enormous coat slouching around around versus Poyet, animated and cajoling his players.

The funny thing is after years of quiet Old Trafford the crowd actually seem to have responded to adversity and tried to make a noise and show some fight. I think it's mainly two small areas doing this including that new singing area but at times like Sociedad they've come across loudly at home for the first time in years. Loud away is a given but even Sunday, which typically would have been silent given the opposition, came across well.