The old Man Utd Thread

[fatbob]

He has a point..

[phresh]

More the part about letting Ljajic down, how many players come into the club and never even get a game? He wasn't here when Manucho got shipped out on loan after a couple of games never to be seen again, same for numerous other players.

The Ronaldo transfer skews the figures somewhat, I think the previous 3 summers we had a positive spend. The issue could well be financial, or as the reports suggest it could be because he wouldn't add enough to the squad above the players we already have. The problem is that most fans will just latch onto the financial side of the argument when both reasons are still just speculation.

[Liamness]

Hopefully the Glazers will realise they can't add any more value to the club with their resources, and that they must sell. They're probably waiting till the 'financial climate' is better, but if they just listed shares for half the club, I'm sure they'd raise the cash to clear all the debt. Considering how little they put into the club to buy it in the first place, that shouldn't be a bad deal.

[bowser123]

edit- @Phresh

You know when the "Fabregas beater" Ramsey chose Arsenal ahead of us and Everton, even though the club said he'd signed for Utd, remember that? One of the reasons he chose Wenger was how he felt Arse could progress him better, they had form for it, etc etc.

You tell me what you'd do in this hypothetical situation. You have a kid and you're Spanish or whatever, us, Arsenal, Chelsea want your boy. You reckon the parent might look at what we did in leading him Lillyjack on and then shitting on him won't reflect badly? I think it's terrible that they've led him on and now pulled this.

The guy must have had a really, really bad November though seeing as it was a month ago Fergus said:

""Given all the talk about him and the fact he plays for Serbia's Under 21s even though he's only 18, we hope we will be granted the permit."

Ferguson added on Ljajic: "I am looking forward to seeing him."

You can talk of Ronaldo skewing figures, didn't you just say (admittedly glibly) that not buying him and selling others would free cash up for Villa and Silva? What happened to that 80 million that was supposedly earmarked for transfers?

[tetsuo]

More the part about letting Ljajic down, how many players come into the club and never even get a game? He wasn't here when Manucho got shipped out on loan after a couple of games never to be seen again, same for numerous other players.

The Ronaldo transfer skews the figures somewhat, I think the previous 3 summers we had a positive spend. The issue could well be financial, or as the reports suggest it could be because he wouldn't add enough to the squad above the players we already have. The problem is that most fans will just latch onto the financial side of the argument when both reasons are still just speculation.

How does the Ronaldo transfer skew anything? United sold the best player in the world and replaced him with the best player in Wigan and trousered 60 odd million in the process. That is not a skewing of figures, its a statement of truth. Did the club decide to strengthen the squad further with the inclusion of a couple of other world class players to try and replace someone who equalled Dennis Law's record of goals scored in a single season? Did they decide to go raiding in Spain or Italy with their new found riches? No, the money simply vanished.

A club that needs to pay off loans that have negotiated ramped up interest payments sold a player for 80 million and 60 disappeared, it doesn't take a fucking accountant does it.

Edit: Also if you have actually seen Gibson play rather than just his goals you'll see he is not a very good midfielder and in terms of attacking creative midfielders Petrucci is pretty much the only player anywhere near in the style to fill rapidly ageing Scholes' shoes.

Also Manucho was also a grown man where as Ljajic is little more than a boy who was to be taken to last years european champions where one of his boyhood teammates and the captain of his country already play and try to work hard to try and gain a first team place.

Maybe you don't feel sorry for the kid but I'd be heartbroken if I were him but I have a feeling another top side will probably pick him up before too long.

[bowser123]

United sold the best player in the world and replaced him with the best player in Wigan

In 100% agreement with the rest of the post, but poor Valencia

Maybe it's the way I'm reading, but that's incredibly unfair and harsh on a lad that's started well, looks solid and has shown bits of real, real quality. Signing the best player in Lids wasn't that bad for the club, nor Boro, Forest or the imperious Oldham. Unless we signed Messi there really wasn't a direct replacement that wasn't inferior to Ronny.

[fatbob]

How does the Ronaldo transfer skew anything? United sold the best player in the world and replaced him with the best player in Wigan and trousered 60 odd million in the process. That is not a skewing of figures, its a statement of truth. Did the club decide to strengthen the squad further with the inclusion of a couple of other world class players to try and replace someone who equalled Dennis Law's record of goals scored in a single season? Did they decide to go raiding in Spain or Italy with their new found riches? No, the money simply vanished.

A club that needs to pay off loans that have negotiated ramped up interest payments sold a player for 80 million and 60 disappeared, it doesn't take a fucking accountant does it.

Edit: Also if you have actually seen Gibson play rather than just his goals you'll see he is not a very good midfielder and in terms of attacking creative midfielders Petrucci is pretty much the only player anywhere near in the style to fill rapidly ageing Scholes' shoes.

Also Manucho was also a grown man where as Ljajic is little more than a boy who was to be taken to last years european champions where one of his boyhood teammates and the captain of his country already play and try to work hard to try and gain a first team place.

Maybe you don't feel sorry for the kid but I'd be heartbroken if I were him but I have a feeling another top side will probably pick him up before too long.

All of this.

Him and Tosic are United fans too IIRC.

[tetsuo]

In 100% agreement with the rest of the post, but poor Valencia

Maybe it's the way I'm reading, but that's incredibly unfair and harsh on a lad that's started well, looks solid and has shown bits of real, real quality. Signing the best player in Lids wasn't that bad for the club, nor Boro, Forest or the imperious Oldham. Unless we signed Messi there really wasn't a direct replacement that wasn't inferior to Ronny.

Fair point, I like Valencia and admire his hard work but only with red tinted specs so thick they might as well be a blindfold would ever dare to suggest that Valencia does the job that Ronaldo did. That I consider the squad weakened at the expense of the bank balance strengthened (or the inevitable postponed).

[bowser123]

Fair point, I like Valencia and admire his hard work but only with red tinted specs so thick they might as well be a blindfold would ever dare to suggest that Valencia does the job that Ronaldo did. That I consider the squad weakened at the expense of the bank balance strengthened (or the inevitable postponed).

Don't think anyone has suggested Valencia is remotely the player Ronny was, but we didn't really have a choice over him did we? I'd like to think we'd have said no, fuck off, it's us or the reserves but the guy wanted out and got his way. Ronaldo left for an agenda of his. The club didn't have a choice, so I don't blame them for the sale. Personally I hanker to the hope that the lad will see Madrid isn't all it's cracked up to be and come back... I can't see him doing that if we had of benched him for two years. The guy speaks well of us, the manager does of him. Compare that to old Kettleneck down the road. At least they made a precedent in demanding and receiving the cash upfront in one go.

The fact the cash hasn't been reinvested, and won't be in my eyes, is a totally different story mind. The fact that we've paid £250M in interest alone and not paying off the debt really does gall, we could have done a Madrid only with our own legitimately earned cash. Or, ha ha ha, not resort to fleecing "paying customers".

Who could have directly replaced Ronaldo in your view? Well, Messi aside, but we won't ever sign him.

[tetsuo]

Don't think anyone has suggested Valencia is remotely the player Ronny was, but we didn't really have a choice over him did we? I'd like to think we'd have said no, fuck off, it's us or the reserves but the guy wanted out and got his way. Ronaldo left for an agenda of his. The club didn't have a choice, so I don't blame them for the sale. Personally I hanker to the hope that the lad will see Madrid isn't all it's cracked up to be and come back... I can't see him doing that if we had of benched him for two years. The guy speaks well of us, the manager does of him. Compare that to old Kettleneck down the road.

The fact the cash hasn't been reinvested, and won't be in my eyes, is a totally different story mind. The fact that we've paid £250M in interest alone and not paying off the debt really does gall, we could have done a Madrid only with our own legitimately earned cash. Or, ha ha ha, not resort to fleecing "paying customers".

Who could have directly replaced Ronaldo in your view? Well, Messi aside, but we won't ever sign him.

Nobody could have replaced Ronaldo, I think that is pretty obvious but money could have been sprayed around to strengthen the squad after the loss of him. If all the rumours are correct (and folk in Spain seem to think they are) the price agreed for Ronaldo was done so a year before he left so united could have made provision for that. Maybe not signing Berbatov and trying to find a more orthodox target man style striker in the style of Luca Toni for example and then when Ronaldo left picking up a more orthodox winger like Joaquin.

These aren't signings I'm saying the club should defiantly have made but just giving a flavour of what you might want to do with a good lump of money. Maybe look at picking up some of the Madrid cast offs as they went on their shopping spree, Schnieder was always a class act and was binned very quickly, Van der Vaart has real quality but then his wife's cancer is an issue, hell even Van Nistelrooy is on the cheap and could get on the end of a few things. All of this is all very well but its football manager talk and we could gas about it all day, all I'm saying is there were options out there and I didn't even manage to mention the obvious football manager names of Aguero and Ribery. Doh!

[bowser123]

Fair does Tetsuo, fair does. Speaking to the converted... pretty much all you said I've said. Well, besides the talk of Joaquin and Toni, that be crazy talk I just didn't like the singling out of Valencia. I thought you were saying we should have directly replaced Ronaldo with one player which I felt impossible, when what you really wanted was what I did... spend the dough.

If only you'd have picked on ratboy 7 instead, eh. That's the biggest indictment of all in this sorry saga.

[phresh]

You know when the "Fabregas beater" Ramsey chose Arsenal ahead of us and Everton, even though the club said he'd signed for Utd, remember that? One of the reasons he chose Wenger was how he felt Arse could progress him better, they had form for it, etc etc.

You can talk of Ronaldo skewing figures, didn't you just say (admittedly glibly) that not buying him and selling others would free cash up for Villa and Silva? What happened to that 80 million that was supposedly earmarked for transfers?

It could also be because United wanted to loan Ramsey back to Cardiff for the season while Arsenal offered to take him straight into the club. Who is to say how potential youth players might see this saga? They could look at this situation and say they don’t want that to happen or they might look at Macheda coming out of nowhere, scoring against Villa and becoming an instant hero. It’s hardly common either, you only have to see that Diouf has already started training with the team to know that.

How does the Ronaldo transfer skew anything? United sold the best player in the world and replaced him with the best player in Wigan and trousered 60 odd million in the process. That is not a skewing of figures, its a statement of truth. Did the club decide to strengthen the squad further with the inclusion of a couple of other world class players to try and replace someone who equalled Dennis Law's record of goals scored in a single season? Did they decide to go raiding in Spain or Italy with their new found riches? No, the money simply vanished.

A club that needs to pay off loans that have negotiated ramped up interest payments sold a player for 80 million and 60 disappeared, it doesn't take a fucking accountant does it.

Of course the Ronaldo transfer skews everything. It would be like me winning the lottery tomorrow and saying that I haven’t spent anything in the last 20 years. Now if we haven’t spent any of the 60 odd million in the next 4 years then it’s fairly obvious the money has ‘disappeared’. Technically it will take an accountant because we are a PLC.

Edit: Also if you have actually seen Gibson play rather than just his goals you'll see he is not a very good midfielder and in terms of attacking creative midfielders Petrucci is pretty much the only player anywhere near in the style to fill rapidly ageing Scholes' shoes.

If you bothered to check back more than 10 posts you’d have seen that I said something very similar, I don’t think Gibson will make it at United.

Maybe you don't feel sorry for the kid but I'd be heartbroken if I were him but I have a feeling another top side will probably pick him up before too long.

Of course I feel sorry for the kid, it’s the way you raged about his disappointment but I’ve never once seen you mention the disappointment of the numerous other young players that don’t make it here (literally or not). What does seem strange though is that we included this get out cause in the first place, he would have surely known about that?

[tetsuo]

Fair does Tetsuo, fair does. Speaking to the converted... pretty much all you said I've said. Well, besides the talk of Joaquin and Toni, that be crazy talk I just didn't like the singling out of Valencia. I thought you were saying we should have directly replaced Ronaldo with one player which I felt impossible, when what you really wanted was what I did... spend the dough.

If only you'd have picked on ratboy 7 instead, eh. That's the biggest indictment of all in this sorry saga.

I like Valencia, for me he brings more to the team than Park or Nani do (on a side not how frustrating is Nani in the fact he seems to have everything, Pace, skills and a great shot but just doesn't seem to be able to produce the performances) and although I think we paid a touch too much for him Dave Whelan seems to right by United and Fergie at almost every turn so I suppose I don't begrudge the pie munchers their money. Its just that if you now look at the team line ups he seems to have been the positional replacement and so he is inevitably going to be compared no matter how unfair it is.

As for Owen I think as he cost nowt and has already repaid his years wages with that goal then anything out of him is a bonus. I also hear he's on a decent appearence bonus but lower wages in a semi pay as you play sort of deal so the club weren't too stupid in signing him.

Luca Toni and Joquin was a bit of blue sky thinking just to show what a club could do to try and get a bit more strength in a club with that money rather than a proposal, Toni will on the cheap now he's fallen out with Van Gaal (sp?) now as well

[tetsuo]

Of course the Ronaldo transfer skews everything. It would be like me winning the lottery tomorrow and saying that I haven’t spent anything in the last 20 years. Now if we haven’t spent any of the 60 odd million in the next 4 years then it’s fairly obvious the money has ‘disappeared’. Technically it will take an accountant because we are a PLC.

Its not like winning the lottery at all, Ronaldo was worth 80 million easily, silly transfer talk has linked Rooney to barca in a similarly priced deal this summer. He was the team's best player by a country mile and a huge marketing draw as well as his prodigious on pitch performances.

United are not a PLC.

If you bothered to check back more than 10 posts you’d have seen that I said something very similar, I don’t think Gibson will make it at United.

Yeah okay, guilty.

Of course I feel sorry for the kid, it’s the way you raged about his disappointment but I’ve never once seen you mention the disappointment of the numerous other young players that don’t make it here (literally or not). What does seem strange though is that we included this get out cause in the first place, he would have surely known about that?

Its the fact that other kids that united might try to sign up in this way might look at the example and tell them to get knotted, sends a sign that the club are a shambles. United coming in for you and then running out of money is not the way that top clubs should be doing business.

[bowser123]

Of course the Ronaldo transfer skews everything. It would be like me winning the lottery tomorrow and saying that I haven’t spent anything in the last 20 years. Now if we haven’t spent any of the 60 odd million in the next 4 years then it’s fairly obvious the money has ‘disappeared’. Technically it will take an accountant because we are a PLC.

All the shares were sold to Glazer and the club stopped being listed on the stock market as they were no longer a PLC.

Phresh, I'm confused in honesty by your lack of concern either about the way the lad has been treated, or more pressingly, why we haven't signed a guy you felt was so good. Just like Ferguson a month ago, you've said he's going to be top. What's changed in a month?

You say it's common that young players are disappointed and we should share concern for them too. But seriously, when was the last time a player was brought over for training, had a massive bid in writing and accepted, official pictures wearing the kit, pictures with Vidic, talked up for a year, more positive talk in September and October from the manager about how excited he was to get the player, interviewed and then the whole thing pulled one month before he signed. I struggle to think of it ever happening at this club.

The cherry on the cake being the assessment that the player isn't good enough... so the manager was lying in September and October when talking about him, never mind a year ago? He'll probably end up in England, and maybe at Ciddy so they can have another poster, guess then we'll see if he was up to it or not.

What's funny though is last year we didn't sign as we couldn't get value. Which is nonsensical when you consider what the club has done in the past and paid over the odds to get first choice. But, yeah, we've done that one before. What's happening in South Africa this Summer? BUt, yeah, it's a commonly known thing that good performances in the WC result in a player becoming less attractive and cheaper.

So we won't be buying until the season after, or only from nations that didn't make the WC? I mean we probably didn't flog Nani and won't in January for the hope he'll have a blinder and we can recoup the full transfer we paid in September.

Where the heck did four years to spend come from, anyway? Why not 3, or 5?

If they save the profits over the next four years they could buy Ronaldo 2, nearly 3 times over without using the Madrid cash. I'm guessing you're forgetting one of the few things the Goons said when they came that they'd spend £25M net each season and the ability to fund a Rooney should such a player become available. Now we're not buying the Serb, I think that means we now have made a profit on transfers in 5 years htat they've been here. In the face of unprecedented commercial success, record ticket prices, amazing team results.

[Trigg]

I personally don't think it down to money. We announced the deal for Ljajic in January which was before the Ronaldo fee comes into the picture.

There is no denying it that its all a little bit odd the way its turned out, but I think the most likely reason as to why its not happened is either they don't think its worth the risk. We're talking about £10m I'm led to believe.

Or they might be a problem with obtaining a work permit.

I'm not sure personally. I know SAF as come out in the past and spoken highly of Ljajic. But he's hardly going to come out and say he's a bit rubbish. As long as the decision was SAF's, and at this moment in time I'm going to assume it is then I don't have a problem with it.

[phresh]

All the shares were sold to Glazer and the club stopped being listed on the stock market as they were no longer a PLC.

My bad

Phresh, I'm confused in honesty by your lack of concern either about the way the lad has been treated, or more pressingly, why we haven't signed a guy you felt was so good. Just like Ferguson a month ago, you've said he's going to be top. What's changed in a month?

I completely agree that the manner of the cancellation in regards to him coming to United, training etc is complelety off and quite frankly a bit strange. I certainly wouldn't be happy if it was me but nonetheless I don't think this will have any impact on us signing young players in the future. It's always frustrating when you don't sign players with the kind of potential Ljajic has but for now i'll agree with Trigg and put this down as a footballing decision. If it prooves to be a financial one then i'll quite happily admit i'm wrong and i'll be just as pissed off as anyone else.

What's funny though is last year we didn't sign as we couldn't get value. Which is nonsensical when you consider what the club has done in the past and paid over the odds to get first choice. But, yeah, we've done that one before. What's happening in South Africa this Summer? BUt, yeah, it's a commonly known thing that good performances in the WC result in a player becoming less attractive and cheaper.

So we won't be buying until the season after, or only from nations that didn't make the WC? I mean we probably didn't flog Nani and won't in January for the hope he'll have a blinder and we can recoup the full transfer we paid in September.

To be honest i'm not sure how much effect the WC will have on transfer values. Apart from bumping up the price of a few average players the influx of foreign owners will be the biggest problem. Having a quick look the transfer values this summer were higher than those after the Euro's.

[tetsuo]

So NOW the club is claiming Ljajic wasn't signed because they couldn't get a work permit, or at least that is what Phelan has just said in the press conference. It seems they will try any lie to try and cover up the fact that there wasn't the money to sign this lad.

[Trigg]

So NOW the club is claiming Ljajic wasn't signed because they couldn't get a work permit, or at least that is what Phelan has just said in the press conference. It seems they will try any lie to try and cover up the fact that there wasn't the money to sign this lad.

Maybe that is/was the reason? I know Ljajic's agent as been quoted as saying its down to work permit problems.

£10M is a hefty sum of money for a lad who's just turned 18 years of age, coming from a not so strong league. Maybe they thought the money was better used else where.

Also, Phelan's comments are the first 'official' comments we've had is it not? All other quotes are atributed to a secret source or some such. Even the ManUtd.com story seemed to be a c/p job from the tabloids.

Its all speculation now really, and I don't think anyone will know the real reasons. Not any time soon anyway.

So, West Ham tomorrow...

[tetsuo]

Maybe that is/was the reason? I know Ljajic's agent as been quoted as saying its down to work permit problems.

£10M is a hefty sum of money for a lad who's just turned 18 years of age, coming from a not so strong league. Maybe they thought the money was better used else where.

Also, Phelan's comments are the first 'official' comments we've had is it not? All other quotes are atributed to a secret source or some such. Even the ManUtd.com story seemed to be a c/p job from the tabloids.

Its all speculation now really, and I don't think anyone will know the real reasons. Not any time soon anyway.

So, West Ham tomorrow...

And at West Ham that american rapper 50 percent is going to be in the united end I hear, I didn't realise he was building up loyalty points and entering the ballot.

[Trigg]

[FATEone]

edit- @Phresh

You know when the "Fabregas beater" Ramsey chose Arsenal ahead of us and Everton, even though the club said he'd signed for Utd, remember that? One of the reasons he chose Wenger was how he felt Arse could progress him better, they had form for it, etc etc.

You tell me what you'd do in this hypothetical situation. You have a kid and you're Spanish or whatever, us, Arsenal, Chelsea want your boy. You reckon the parent might look at what we did in leading him Lillyjack on and then shitting on him won't reflect badly? I think it's terrible that they've led him on and now pulled this.

The guy must have had a really, really bad November though seeing as it was a month ago Fergus said:

You can talk of Ronaldo skewing figures, didn't you just say (admittedly glibly) that not buying him and selling others would free cash up for Villa and Silva? What happened to that 80 million that was supposedly earmarked for transfers?

This happens day in day out with every club in the country. It's a sad state of affairs and so many kids become disillusioned by it. Seriously, I know 2 kids that are pure quality and had the attitude and application to match, but after being fucked around by Chelsea (one of the worst for it) and the other Spurs, neither has kicked a ball in anger since. They just refuse to play for any team at any level.

[phresh]

“We went down the road of trying to obtain a work permit,” Phelan said. “We made a tentative approach to get one, and what we got back from the Home Office (or these people you deal with) is that we couldn’t get it through in time for when we had to make a decision on Adem in January."

"The point then is do you lay out the money for Adem when there is the possibility you could or couldn’t get the work permit? We decided it wasn’t the time to do it."

"I’m not sure how we’ve left the situation to be honest, the manager would be better to answer that, but as it stands at the moment Adem Ljajic won’t be joining us in January."

"It’s not to do with money that I know of, I don’t think it’s an issue. We definitely went to try and get the work permit or made a point to get it and we were told it would be an issue, so we couldn’t make a decision from that point on."

"As you can see we’ve got young players and we’re a team that requires young players to come through and develop and bring into the first team. We’ve looked at Adem and he has the potential to do that but you can’t fight these things sometimes."

"Some people you can get work permits for, some you can’t. Adem fell into the category of being hard to get a work permit for, so we made the decision (not to pursue it).”

Still sounds a little wishy washy although if you've seen Phelan's post match interviews that isn't entirely unexpected. It does make sense that we wouldn't pay 10 million for a player who couldn't join us until the summer (or at all) and the comments above do seem to leave the door open. Not sure why getting a work permit would be tricky, especially as United appear confident that Diouf will get one (although he is older) but then again this is the Home Office we are talking about.

[bowser123]

I seemingly only post to moan, but to think people moan about O'Shea. Look what happens when he isn't around:

Man Utd: Kuszczak, Fletcher, Neville, Brown, Evra, Gibson, Anderson, Valencia, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney

Subs: Foster, Owen, Berbatov, Park, Carrick, Nani, De Laet

Looks like it was picked out of a tombola again.

Neville anywhere is a massive concern as he's fucked, Fletcher at right back is bad. Fletch will do well there, but that midfield has no tacklers really and it's a concern. Would much rather have Da Laet in and Fletch in the middle, think we're losing much more in having him there than we're gaining... any bets on when the Carrick for Gibson swap is made?.

Still, we should have enough going forward, especially on that bench, it's just going to be stopping them that'll be interesting what with the usual Cup Final occasion that it normally is down there.

[fatbob]

Shows how many defensive injures we have, when you have to play Neville, Brown and Fletcher in defense with only De Laet on the bench...

[fatbob]

Also, where the hell is Hargreaves?

[fatbob]

Neville is off injured....

Looks like a hamstring.

[Boobni82]

Nevilles gone now as well - looks like the groin

[fatbob]

Long balls, thats Gary's problem. Long balls.

[ckny]

Fucking Carrick? Just bring De Laet on show a little faith, Christ.