The old Man Utd Thread

[FATEone]

Oi

I play WoW

LOL, 'play' would be used loosely right? Anyway I wasn't taking the piss out of WoW, just lettin' JLR know that I know where to find him.

[DC Lemon]

The entertainment of the last fifteen minutes made up for the horror show that came before. Darren Fletcher is cursed in this competition.

[Trigg]

LOL, 'play' would be used loosely right? Anyway I wasn't taking the piss out of WoW, just lettin' JLR know that I know where to find him.

Check the big man out behind his monitor. Muppet.

---

Anyway, what a bizarre game. We defended absolutely shockingly and every time Krasic and Dzagoev got the ball they looked dangerous and caused the back four problems. Although I do have to say I don't think Fletcher and Scholes helped at times, seemed to be oceans of room in midfield.

Now the positives, we created so many good chances. Gary Neville was brilliant going forward and put in some quality in from the right side, he backed up Valencia very well and we did look most dangerous down that right flank. Thought Macheda was bright too. Held the ball well and showed some good touches not to mention his 2 chance snap shot chances. Although hopefully we'll never see him on the left wing again anytime soon.

And then we had another cameo from Obertan. He looks half decent doesn't he? He didn't do anything special but he did link up well, he looks a very intelligent footballer and the early signs are that he might just make it at United. Could be another bargain for Fergie at £3m.

No doubt we'll have to defend better against Chelsea but hopefully we can take our attacking play into the game. With Berbatov, Giggs, Vidic more or less be declared fit by Sir Alex I think personally we stand a good chance.

How are people wanting us to line up against Chelsea then? I think for me we should go in with a 3 man midfield. We were found wanting in the Liverpool game with our 2 (all be it I think Scholes and Carrick aren't the best 2 nowadays to face a 3 man midfield) against their 3 so for this I'd go with a 3 man midfield or maybe play Fletcher on the right with Anderson and Carrick in the centre which will let is play Berbatov and Rooney up front.

[MojoChin]

maybe play Fletcher on the right with Anderson and Carrick in the centre which will let is play Berbatov and Rooney up front.

You are mad! Losing your best ball-winning midfielder to play on the wing?! What we need to do is sign Akinfeev to play Chelsea...I can't see past:

VDS

O'Shea - Vidic - Evans - Evra

Valencia - Anderson - Fletcher - Giggs

Rooney - Berbatov

At least with this there will be a bit of bite in the midfield. Anderson + Fletcher > Scholes + Carrick, defensively anyway.

But as for last night:

VDS - How on earth you let 2 goals go in from such a tight angle, into the FAR post?! Ridiculous positioning/goalkeeping.

Neville - Give him the ball 20 yards out from the Moscow goal and he might do something, anything else was terrible.

Brown - Terrible, thats all I can say. So many times he strayed from holding the line and we were punished for it time and again.

Evans - Played well in a catastrophic back line.

Raphio - Showed a bit of urgency that some were lacking.

Nani - Stepover-Stepover-Stepover-Step on the ball. This man needs to learn restraint, but I don't think he has the time at Utd to do it.

Scholes - When given time on the ball, he did what he did best, but couldn't track back effectively.

Fletcher - Can a man get any more unlucky? Energetic performance yet again and effective.

Valencia - He needs to be more direct, we know he has pace and can beat people but he hasn't shown it yet.

Macheda - Didn't really do much except for his 2 shots but what he did do was promising.

Owen - Should have scored more, he makes some decent runs but I don't think he has got used to playing for us and vice-versa. Needs a connection between him and midfield.

[Trigg]

Fletch had done well for us on the right hand side for us before. His game is all about hustle and harassing and he's kinda of pigeon holed as a defensive midfielder but I don't think he is really.

That being said I actually think we'll go with a 3 man midfield for this one. Anderson and Fletch, and then either Carrick or Giggs depending on who play play as the front 3.

Also, you're being over critical of VDS. The first he maybe could've done better but it was a fantastic hit with power and was past before he could react. The 3rd he had no chance with. Back across him from about 4 yards out. Fabio and Macheda between them should've pick the man up.

[MojoChin]

Fletch had done well for us on the right hand side for us before. His game is all about hustle and harassing and he's kinda of pigeon holed as a defensive midfielder but I don't think he is really.

That being said I actually think we'll go with a 3 man midfield for this one. Anderson and Fletch, and then either Carrick or Giggs depending on who play play as the front 3.

Also, you're being over critical of VDS. The first he maybe could've done better but it was a fantastic hit with power and was past before he could react. The 3rd he had no chance with. Back across him from about 4 yards out. Fabio and Macheda between them should've pick the man up.

Fletcher has been OK playing on the right before but his game has matured and improved since then. But as I say there is no point in playing someone who is the best player we have available to break down attacks on the wing. We also have better wingers than Fletcher so playing on the wing is a double waste, especially against someone like Chelsea.

As for VDS, I don't think I am being over critical at all. First one, Evans did his job perfectly, escorting his man to a tight angle. VDS should have positioned himself much better to deal with it. Same with the third. I agree that the man should have been picked up, and I don't know who was supposed to do it, but it should never have been Raphio. Again VDS's positioning was terrible. From that angle VDS should have the whole net covered. Schmeichel would never have allowed that to happen...VDS a few years ago would never have let that happen. Also, Evra always picks up the back post, we should have had someone there and maybe VDS wouldn't have had the positional nightmare he did.

[Trigg]

Oh well, I think you're totally wrong on both fronts regarding VDS. Evans took him wide but didn't but any pressure on him and the ball was hit so hard right above VDS's shoulder. Not sure what the keeper couldn't have done if I'm honest.

The 3rd was a combination of Fabio and Macheda too. I think Fabio should've had the back post area covered but got caught underneath the ball, and Macheda actually looked at him and instead of following his run and getting a head on the ball decided to point at Fabio.

Be interesting to see what other people think. But in my eyes you could maybe blame him for the first (but it would be over critical) but no way for the 3rd.

[MojoChin]

He did the same for Torres' goal as well. (But granted Ferdinand should have cleared house.)

[Liamness]

I'm attempting to transfer the "is Ronaldo going to go down as a great" discussion over here. This is, obviously, mainly a reply to FATEone.

He might not win much with Madrid, as they are a brand and not a team. You suggest he made United unbalanced and he will make Madrid unbalanced, but that does not matter as much in Madrid. As long as he is scoring goals, selling shirts, and making his club millions of euros no-one will care. I don't know if this will affect his legacy, or whatever. I suspect that he won't win the most, but he will continue to play irresistible football and score shitloads of goals, and that's really the sort of footballer we'll all still be talking about in decades to come. I think Messi will bring his team more success, and be preferred by footballing purists though, he's a little more magical in my book.

[JLR]

LOL, 'play' would be used loosely right? Anyway I wasn't taking the piss out of WoW, just lettin' JLR know that I know where to find him.

Oh lolz. Next 'WoW convention' shouldn't be so far away mush

[bowser123]

or maybe play Fletcher on the right with Anderson and Carrick in the centre which will let is play Berbatov and Rooney up front.

Let's ignore the whole playing Fletcher out of position thing for a moment, Carrick and Anderson in the middle. Together. Really?

I mean putting aside the fact the two never, ever play well when paired with neither really attacking nor defending, you want to play them two against the strongest midfield around? Ballack, Lampard and Essien will utterly destroy them, eat them alive.

I mean Chelsea have no width and you want to put Fletcher there? We need to get stuck in and fight, I really can't see this happening with Carrick and Ando, with next to no chance of either actually creating anything.

That said what we really need is the manager to pick his central 2 and settle with it for a run of game. Fat chance of that though.

[Trigg]

Let's ignore the whole playing Fletcher out of position thing for a moment, Carrick and Anderson in the middle. Together. Really?

I mean putting aside the fact the two never, ever play well when paired with neither really attacking nor defending, you want to play them two against the strongest midfield around? Ballack, Lampard and Essien will utterly destroy them, eat them alive.

I mean Chelsea have no width and you want to put Fletcher there? We need to get stuck in and fight, I really can't see this happening with Carrick and Ando, with next to no chance of either actually creating anything.

That said what we really need is the manager to pick his central 2 and settle with it for a run of game. Fat chance of that though.

Ok, you condescending so and so.

Well, had Carrick been playing yesterday I don't think CSKA wouldn't have got half as much room as they did. He's very good at plugging gaps in the defensive third. You obviously don't rate his defensive side of his game but I do.

Fletcher has played well on the right had side numerous times and can provide some width but mainly it allows us to play our most dangerous players in Rooney and Berbatov in their preferred positions. I'll admit its not Fletchers best or preferred position but its an option.

Giggs will feature though I'm sure of it. SAF mentioned him in the post match interview as said he's be fit for Sunday, along with Berbatov and Vidic so maybe we'll go 4-4-2 with Giggs playing as the left winger and tucking in as he naturally seems to do now.

Who/what system would you play out of interest?

[phresh]

God Neville was shit last night, fair enough he got some decent crosses in at the end but given the amount of time and space he was given my nan could have done a job in there. Upto that point though the guy was like a black hole, slowing space and time around him. It completely upsets the balance of the defence when you have an attacking fullback on the other side.

As for Chelsea at the weekend I think it will be;

___________VDS___________

O'Shea__Vidic__Evans___Evra

Valencia_Fletcher_Carrick_Giggs

____Berbatov____Rooney____

I'd rather see Anderson in there instead of Carrick but I think that is what he will go for. The only variation on that might be if Berbatov is left out and then both Anderson and Carrick play, which I quite like the idea of but it then relies too heavily on the wide men to support Rooney.

[aidey6]

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2558/news/2...d-rio-ferdinand

lets hope this may mean a return to form once sorted, as frankly he's been poor this season

also http://goal.com/en-gb/news/2559/rumours/20...di-maria-report

to add to the on going rumour mill ....

[Trigg]

Angel Di Maria is an interesting one. I've seen him a few times now. Once for Benfica and twice for the national team and he's looked good in all of them. He's quick and direct and he's left footed which always adds a balance to a team I think. I think he might be worth a punt for the reported £12M fee.

He should be playing tonight against Everton again if people want to watch him in action.

[bowser123]

Who/what system would you play out of interest?

A wing and a prayer. Seriously. We've been taken apart by a player that even Arsenal fans don't like in Diaby, and it's frankly horrifying what happened when Torres scored the other week. We literally had no midfield when it went in, it was all pumped balls. How many times did a huge gap open when nobody was tackling? It's one thing chasing a game and letting Ngog score in the 7th minute of extra time when everybody is up, and there's playing with no midfield in the 70th minute.

Hell, even Lee Cattermole showed us up. At home. I'm just convinced that Essien, Lampard and Ballack would utterly dominate and steam roll a 4-4-2 of ando and Carrick.

Ok, you condescending so and so.

Well, had Carrick been playing yesterday I don't think CSKA wouldn't have got half as much room as they did. He's very good at plugging gaps in the defensive third. You obviously don't rate his defensive side of his game but I do.

Na, you get me wrong. I really, really like Carrick. I think he did a top job when paired with Scholes. The thing is he never, ever has a good game with Ando. To me it seems like neither know whose supposed to be sitting and whose attacking. Consequently both do neither and it's a mess.

But, yeah, for whatever reason Carrick is seriously off form and I don't trust him right now. Then again I don't trust any of them bar Fletcher, and I suspect the manager is the same hence the constant, heavy rotation. Which in turn is harming all of them.

But to the point of Carrick. We can keep playing him with two and hope he'll regain form, or play it a bit safer and surround him with two guys whose roles are much more clearly defined.

Fletcher has played well on the right had side numerous times and can provide some width but mainly it allows us to play our most dangerous players in Rooney and Berbatov in their preferred positions. I'll admit its not Fletchers best or preferred position but its an option.

But if I'm right in fears re: Ando and Carrick we've lost our most competitive, hard working tackler to the wing, against a team that has no wingers. For ages I've said this team has no leader, or at a push fighters. That 94 team of Ince, Hughes and Keane would kick fuck out of you first and then play you off the park... nobody like that now bar Rooney.

Playing him there fucks about with Valencia, who alongside Giggs and Rooney, and at times Evra, are probably our most consistently creative players this season. Plus Valencia isn't scared of tackling to try and stop the full backs of theirs.

Who/what system would you play out of interest?

Second answer

5 in midfield for sure. Carrick, Fletcher and Scholes centrally. Giggs left, Valencia right. Rooney on his todd BUT with the explicit command that Giggs is expected to try and link up at times. It's far from ideal as Rooney hates that job, but I'm negative right now and would snatch a draw gleefully.

For me Scholes is the only one that looks composed against somebody half decent right now. He behaved himself against Scousers too, which was a novelty. He didn't create much against them but he kept things moving and will get stuck in. There's also the thing that he can still create magic and up until recently I regarded him as the clubs best player... he's been a real mix this season, brilliant in some games and utterly lamentable in others.

[bowser123]

to add to the on going rumour mill ....

Some transfer window this'll be, gonna be quality in January. Just wait for the shot of kid Lilly Jack and Diouf, flanked by Villa, Silva and Auguero. Crouched somewhere near by will be Modric and that Rusky goalie.

Man, that'll be ace! For a club with no money.

Actually, talking of Modric, greatly pisses me off we showed zero interest in him or Shaven Arse. They'd have done alright at Utd, at best we look like paying double to Spurs for one.

[oli]

For me Scholes is the only one that looks composed against somebody half decent right now. He behaved himself against Scousers too, which was a novelty. He didn't create much against them but he kept things moving and will get stuck in. There's also the thing that he can still create magic and up until recently I regarded him as the clubs best player... he's been a real mix this season, brilliant in some games and utterly lamentable in others.

Really? Liverpool seemed to just rush Scholes whenever he was in possession which pretty much negated any impact he might have had on the game

[Liamness]

Against Chelsea I would like

             VDS

        Evans  Vidic

Brown                  Evra

           Fletcher

  Carrick       Anderson

  Valencia      Rooney

          Berbatov

Chelsea don't play wingers, so their fullbacks should be vunerable. Get Valencia or Rooney to go inside and draw the defender with them, then allowing an overlapping midfielder or fullback the time and space to put a good ball in. As for defending, we're just going to have to try and boss the midfield, their fluency of late has been consummate and we can't allow them time or space. Reverting to a 5 man midfield should help there.

[Trigg]

I'd go for 5 in midfield as well, but I'd have Anderson in for Scholes who I fear doesn't have the legs to play against the likes of Chelsea and I'd have Rooney on the left, Valencia on the right with Berbatov as the central striker. With lose a bit of composure on the ball without Scholes but we gain Anderson's energy and running ability and he isn't as good a passer as Scholes but he's not half bad. Carrick can be the one that sits and tries to conduct the play and let Fletch and Anderson do all the running around.

Very much looking forward to the game and I quietly fancy us getting something from the fixture on Sunday.

I still think Fletcher is an option on the right and could do a job mind!

(in reply to bowser)

[bowser123]

Really? Liverpool seemed to just rush Scholes whenever he was in possession which pretty much negated any impact he might have had on the game

I felt he was clean in the tackle, linked the play more effectively than the hoofing that proceeded his departure and we looked miles more solid when he was in. There certainly wasn't the gaps that opened post the goal. He kept it simple, wasn't intimidated and kept possession.

Maybe he was taken off because he tired, or the manager thought we needed a goal so Nani and rat boy on came on... maybe the openess was because we abandoned tacklers and left Carrick to do it alone and I'm crediting Scholes with too much.

I definitely felt we where in the game at 0-0 (well, durrrr, obviously, it's 0-0) but they scored, he left and we where hopeless and well, well beaten by the end.

[oli]

I felt he was clean in the tackle, linked the play more effectively than the hoofing that proceeded his departure and we looked miles more solid when he was in. There certainly wasn't the gaps that opened post the goal. He kept it simple, wasn't intimidated and kept possession.

Maybe he was taken off because he tired, or the manager thought we needed a goal so Nani and rat boy on came on... maybe the openess was because we abandoned tacklers and left Carrick to do it alone and I'm crediting Scholes with too much.

I definitely felt we where in the game at 0-0 (well, durrrr, obviously, it's 0-0) but they scored, he left and we where hopeless and well, well beaten by the end.

Mmm I thought while I was watching, and it was a while ago so I might be misremembering, that Liverpool were intentionally rushing/closing down Giggs and Scholes more quickly than other players and it was having an effect on Scholes

[bowser123]

Mmm I thought while I was watching, and it was a while ago so I might be misremembering, that Liverpool were intentionally rushing/closing down Giggs and Scholes more quickly than other players and it was having an effect on Scholes

A quick scan at a few newspaper sites all have Scholes as the highest rated player... so nerr, nerr nerr nerr.

Na, seriously, what you're explaining happened.

I just thought that when pressured he didn't give the ball away, tackled and was competitive. Composed and not daunted. Created little, but then none did, and we looked much more solid with him around. Basically the qualities I feel we'll need at the weekend, with the chance he'll do something majestic.

Maybe it's a difference in expectations. We all want the high scoring, majestic, best English player of his generation back. If he's not spraying balls around and scoring people question him. I'm kinda happy with a player (for the Chelsea game I mean) that'll keep it tight and simple, with the chance he can do something brilliant. He's had his moments where he's really been at it this season so it's not a wildly optimistic expectation.

I think my midfield is a lot more disciplined with him in it (if you ignore the glaringly obvious flaw that Scholes can misbehave and get sent off, but I mean if he behaves) than the hope Ando can pull something off.

What I feel most of all though is I wish we could just bin the lot and start afresh. 8 billion midfielders yet nobody bar Fletcher anybody can agree on. So we chop and change and nobody gets a run and consequently they all look shit/ nervous/ out of form. All a great big hotch potch created at vast expense.

Edit- You hear that line midweek during the game about Valencia basically not being a winger, but a midfielder who plays out wide? Him playing centrally reinforces for his country this. I think he's got a wicked, consistent cross and great pace so he has winger attributes, but maybe he should be tried centrally for us?

He can certainly tackle and pick a pass, but then again do we want to fuck around with another player and possibly play him out of position??? Not really!

[oli]

What I feel most of all though is I wish we could just bin the lot and start afresh. 8 billion midfielders yet nobody bar Fletcher anybody can agree on. So we chop and change and nobody gets a run and consequently they all look shit/ nervous/ out of form. All a great big hotch potch created at vast expense.

I think if Hargreaves wasn't constantly injured things might look slightly different now as he was seemed to have been bought as a long term solution. Hopefully Lliajic is as good as everyone says, when he finally comes to us

[Trigg]

What I feel most of all though is I wish we could just bin the lot and start afresh. 8 billion midfielders yet nobody bar Fletcher anybody can agree on. So we chop and change and nobody gets a run and consequently they all look shit/ nervous/ out of form. All a great big hotch potch created at vast expense.

For me Anderson and Fletcher are the most inform players in central midfield and I think them two should be starting the majority of games. In recent times it seems you're guaranteed to get a game at United regardless of form due to the amount of rotation we do. While it's good at keeping players fresh for the season I sometimes think it doesn't help any of the players.

Its hard to be critical of SAF with regards to rotation but he does tend to shuffle the pack a bit top often in midfield for my liking.

Edit- You hear that line midweek during the game about Valencia basically not being a winger, but a midfielder who plays out wide? Him playing centrally reinforces for his country this. I think he's got a wicked, consistent cross and great pace so he has winger attributes, but maybe he should be tried centrally for us?

He can certainly tackle and pick a pass, but then again do we want to fuck around with another player and possibly play him out of position??? Not really!

He usually plays central midfield for his country, and usually to great effect (I remember him having a storming game against Brazil as a central midfielder) but that being said I still think his best position is right wing. I know he's not set the world alight but he does have a knack of creating chances. As the weeks have gone by he's better and better and seems to be coming accustomed to life as a Man Utd player which is good to see.

[bowser123]

Serious question Trigg as you think Ando is in form, when did Anderson last have a really, really good game where he imposed himself?

I think back to Blackburn (Carrick and Ando paired) last week, and sure, neither looked troubled defensively. Then again Big Sam only had a gameplan of defend deep, hoof and set pieces so you'd kinda expect that. We where comatose for a good 40 minutes or so it was that dull.

Neither Carrick or Ando drove forward and created, or shot, hell even clattered somebody to get the crowd going. I mean the whole team where lethargic for that 40 minute period, but when it did warm up it was Berba, Valencia and Evra that got us going. Obertan looked exciting if maybe lacking in absolute quality, but still, he did more to entertain and promise than most others. So, yeah... why weren't that central pair driving us on and making something happen?

Ando has played well at times this season, but I really haven't seen him impose himself and he's generally done well when the others have too.

[Trigg]

Serious question Trigg as you think Ando is in form, when did Anderson last have a really, really good game where he imposed himself?

I think back to Blackburn (Carrick and Ando paired) last week, and sure, neither looked troubled defensively. Then again Big Sam only had a gameplan of defend deep, hoof and set pieces so you'd kinda expect that. We where comatose for a good 40 minutes or so it was that dull.

Neither Carrick or Ando drove forward and created, or shot, hell even clattered somebody to get the crowd going. I mean the whole team where lethargic for that 40 minute period, but when it did warm up it was Berba, Valencia and Evra that got us going. Obertan looked exciting if maybe lacking in absolute quality, but still, he did more to entertain and promise than most others. So, yeah... why weren't that central pair driving us on and making something happen?

Ando has played well at times this season, but I really haven't seen him impose himself and he's generally done well when the others have too.

I thought he was good against Blackburn, saw alot of the ball and used the ball well and made some good tackles/interceptions when needed not sure if he was really really good though. He's been decent in the games before that too, CSKA away and Wolfsborg and Barnsley in the Cup. Again nothing special but he looked to be coming into form.

As for really imposing himself on games, he doesn't do that very often. He's still young though and its often a criticism of Carrick also so that probably is a problem we have within the midfield.

[FATEone]

Check the big man out behind his monitor. Muppet.

What do you mean check the big man out...

I wasn't the one calling people a fuckin muppet in the safety of their Mum's spare room for no reason. And now you're doing it too. So who's the muppet. We can meet up any time you like to find out who's who.

[FATEone]

Let's ignore the whole playing Fletcher out of position thing for a moment, Carrick and Anderson in the middle. Together. Really?

I mean putting aside the fact the two never, ever play well when paired with neither really attacking nor defending, you want to play them two against the strongest midfield around? Ballack, Lampard and Essien will utterly destroy them, eat them alive.

I mean Chelsea have no width and you want to put Fletcher there? We need to get stuck in and fight, I really can't see this happening with Carrick and Ando, with next to no chance of either actually creating anything.

That said what we really need is the manager to pick his central 2 and settle with it for a run of game. Fat chance of that though.

You're bang on about Carrick/Anderson, and that Chelsea play with no width.

--------------VDS

???-------Rio-----Vidic-------Evra

-------------Fletcher

Valencia---Scholes-----Anderson

-------------------Rooney

---------Berbatov

Evra will get down the line and stick crosses in, not that Anderson couldn't, but with him there it doesn't leave all the scrapping to Fletch. Scholes is still the best player you have when it comes to gettin his foot on the ball and dictating the pace. Giggs I think is more effective coming off the bench in these sort of games. Can Evans play RB, I reckon he would deal with Ashley Cole who has been very good going forward this year.

[phresh]

I don't think Anderson has imposed himself on any game really, but then again neither has Carrick or Scholes. When we have Hargreaves back fit and we are able to consistently field more conventional central midfield pairings I think we will see improvements in the attacking players. The problem is that none of them (Scholes, Carrick or Anderson) are able to really drive the team forward the way Fletcher does so often. Carrick has never really been that kind of player and Scholes just doesn't have the legs for it anymore. I do think Anderson will get there eventually but he needs to be given a little more freedom that playing with Fletcher or Hargreaves would give him.

I think Valencia is doing well, none of the inconsistency we have been used to with Nani and seems to be increasing with confidence in every game. I'm not convinced about him in the centre though as he is incredibly one footed although maybe in the future that will improve. The guy has outstanding pace though, he makes quick fullbacks look slow at times. I don't think it will be long before we see Obertan get a first team start too (non-CC). His cameo's have been effective without being flashy. He's shown pace and a real willingness to pass and move instead of running down blind alleys.

The only thing that really worries me about Sunday is our defence going up against what is currently the best centre forward pairing in the league. It's a game made for Fletcher though, he should be able to have a field day against a midfield that lacks any real pace and and width. Doesn't make much difference if they start passing it around us though, which is what I expect might happen.