The old Man Utd Thread

[Majora]

Yeah the central midfield is a huge issue and it's never consistent. I literally never have a clue who will play from game to game. Yeah rotation is important but not the second game of the season! I'm

not convinced Fergie knows exactly why he picks certain midfield combinations to be honest. I have to agree about Anderson as well. I think the reason he got stuck in this role was because he was put there more out of hope than expectation against Liverpool when everyone was injured. And because he did well I think they've tried to convert him there but I'm not convinced.

I suspect we might have been in a better position if Hargreaves had stayed fit and become the lynchpin of our midfield. As it is right now I see little reason not to play Fletcher most of the time. He's been our most consistent midfielder for ages now.

As for our attack...man it's so slow and static and was last season. It's hard to believe a couple of years ago we were so fluid and incisive.

[fatbob]

So, Rio is out for a month, and the boss has ruled out new signings again-again.

I think we'll be lucky to scrape a 1 goal win over Wigan tomorrow tbh, we need to kick up a gear.

[Gabzy]

[The Fox]

Well it looks like Sneijder is probably going to Inter, so that rules him out, even if you were making more signings.

[bowser123]

Well it looks like Sneijder is probably going to Inter, so that rules him out, even if you were making more signings.

Too expensive, £15M isn't good value, transfers have gone mad

[sith]

I think Sneijder is better than Valencia and how much did we pay for him??

[tyler]

£16.8M

Before your opening two games I really fancied you guys to be a better team than you were last year and maybe you still will be once you settle on the best 11. I tipped Chelsea to walk the title though.

[phresh]

I mentioned it in another thread but I’ve seen quite a few people saying Sjneider has the ability but has very poor stamina levels and quite frankly the PL is really not the place for that kind of player, even more so in a 4-4-2 formation. Comparing him to Valencia is stupid, you would no more put Valencia through the centre than you would Sjneider on the wing so it’s a moot point, especially as we are far shorter on speedy wingers than we are ambling central midfielders.

I think too many fans are looking at the team specifically for this season and not longer term, come the end of the year we could have both Petrucci and Ljaijc capable of filling the same role without having to pay anything like the wages for a player who would restrict their opportunities in the first team.

[The Fox]

I think too many fans are looking at the team specifically for this season and not longer term, come the end of the year we could have both Petrucci and Ljaijc capable of filling the same role without having to pay anything like the wages for a player who would restrict their opportunities in the first team.

So what you're saying is that Man Utd are the new Arsenal?

[fatbob]

I think Sneijder is better than Valencia and how much did we pay for him??

Different kind of player realy, I realy rate Valencia. Sneijder or Robben could have been what we needed in addition to Valencia though.

If we loose two of the next 3 we'll be in dire straits, but untill then we can hopefully scrape a rythem together.

The Arsenal game is a little worrying though given our defensive problems.

[phresh]

Isn't Vidic supposed to be back in the next week? Him and Evans at the back is good enough against any team.

[phresh]

So what you're saying is that Man Utd are the new Arsenal?

Maybe yeah! Difference being we're coming off 3 title wins on the trot and Arsenal haven't won anything in 4 years!

It's nigh on impossible to create and develop a team that can win the title every year, that no team has ever won it four years in a row shows just how difficult that task is. We may not win the title this year but when I look at the squad of players we have and those who are yet to join us I couldn't be any more confident that the departures we've had last season and those we'll have almost every season will have little effect on the continued success of the team. This is especially true when you look at the financial restrictions in place at Anfield and that they have just overhauled their youth setup so it's unlikely they will see too many benefits on that front for a few years. Likewise Chelsea have an aging squad that sooner or later is going to need a massive overhall and we've yet to see if Abramhovic is willing to fund it.

[fatbob]

Isn't Vidic supposed to be back in the next week? Him and Evans at the back is good enough against any team.

Fergie said today he should be fit to play tomorrow.

Although Evans is carrying a few knocks too and is waiting his turn for an operation.

[phresh]

Fergie said today he should be fit to play tomorrow.

Although Evans is carrying a few knocks too and is waiting his turn for an operation.

Yeah, read that after i'd asked! I assume they will wait until Rio is back before giving him the op. By that time Brown might have had a few games and be playing a bit better too.

[bowser123]

I think Sneijder is better than Valencia and how much did we pay for him??

I was being slightly disingenuous, I don't for a second believe that Ferguson really means that value line.

That said you're being unfair on Valencia, he's a proven Premiership player and has already done what he was bought for; namely running up and down that wing, banging in crosses and helping his full back. Not his fault chances aren't being converted.

Sure prices have gone crazy, sure it probably isn't the best idea to waste the full amount we received on Augero or Villa or Silva or whatever player to be linked that we have seemingly no interest in. That said the manager knows and has accepted since the year dot that it's better to slightly overpay and acquire the first choice than spend a similar amount on 2 or 3 lesser players over a few years and ender up weaker for it. Top, top quality costs that bit more but it's worth it.

It is an absolute piss take though that somebody whose proven at the highest level, that's apparently available for a snip, who'd undoubtedly fit in, would join and we're not even interested in him... I call shenanigans personally and think that rather than Ferguson being oblivious to a lack of scorers in the middle is being restrained by what he can spend.

Little snippet for you. Net spend in 5 years since the owners came in: less than £10 million. That's in the face of near unprecedented gains from sponsorship, TV rights, 60% ticket price increases, success on the pitch. If it was a PLC still we could comfortably afford close to £100 million a year in transfers, whilst giving a profit to share holders and being in profit. Or laughably not price real fans away and turn the place into a tourist attraction, once a year day out for the customer that the place is now.

------------------------------

So, yeah, it's early days but that little Scouse bastard has proven a roaring success, hasn't he? Give him a chance and he'll score, he's still got the killer touch, if fit he'll grab 20 goals etc etc etc.

I make it 8 excellent chances he's fucked up thus far, about half absolutely clear cut. Munich, it's OK he's just getting started. Valencia, he'll come good, it's only pre-season. Birmingham, it's because he only had 10 minutes. Burnley, err, I didn't see any excuses for his air ball attempts at a tap in and header.

If he's not scoring he provides absolutely nothing to the team. He doesn't link play, he won't bang in crosses. He is atrocious at passing and doesn't seem a Utd player to me. Talking to somebody who I used to work with that's Scouse- he's of the opinion that when he was at his best at Liverpool, the Welsh dwarf is a bit like Rooney in that he needed 3 or 4 full in succession games to get a rhythm and confidence.

You know what I think? He doesn't give a fuck about the team, fans or league, it's all about getting a place for the World Cup. He's the exact same player I saw at Newcastle, only slightly more motivated.

Shut me up you little fuck and bag a hat trick today, please.

I assume you didn’t watch us play last season? Last nights performance was on a par with most of how we played for most of last season, Tevez and Ronaldo included. The lack of dynamism in midfield is, in my opinion, due more to inconsistency of selection than a general lack of quality. It’s one area of rotation that hasn’t really paid off. The frustrating thing is that nearly every player who plays in the centre looks good after a run of games (apart from Giggs who plays great regardless, and did again yesterday) and then they need to be rested and it sets the team back again. The influence this then has on the strikers and wingers is what causes the lack of dynamism rather than the strikers or wingers lacking it in the first place.

From the other day and much quoted, but once again, this is so so true. Please play Carrick and Fletcher consistently, it's helping nobody constantly swapping. The thing is the manager seemingly never plays those two. I think it frees Carrick up to be much more than a semi anonymous defensive midfielder.

Anderson and Carrick doesn't work. Neither is properly defensive, so it ends up a fudge with neither really attacking and very little coming from them.

[Gabzy]

Shut me up you little fuck and bag a hat trick today, please.

From the other day and much quoted, but once again, this is so so true. Please play Carrick and Fletcher consistently, it's helping nobody constantly swapping. The thing is the manager seemingly never plays those two. I think it frees Carrick up to be much more than a semi anonymous defensive midfielder.

Anderson and Carrick doesn't work. Neither is properly defensive, so it ends up a fudge with neither really attacking and very little coming from them.

Amen, brother. He really needs to make up his mind about a centre midfield pairing and fucking stick to it.

[Majora]

Yeah seeing Anderson and Carrick together on the team sheet is starting to fill me with the same dread I used to get when I saw Richardson in midfield Games they've played together recently

Burnley 1 - 0 Man Utd

Barcelona 2 - 0 Man Utd

Liverpool 4 - 1 Man Utd

Might be coincidence, might be that they just don't fit well together. In all 3 games there was even less control in the midfield area than usual. I'd favour Carrick and Fletcher as my first choice personally but in reality we all know one game we'll get Anderson and Fletcher, the next Scholes and Carrick, the next Carrick and Anderson, the next Giggs and Fletcher, the next Anderson and Scholes, the next Scholes and Fletcher etc....I miss the days when we knew our best midfield was Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beckham and if they were all fit chances are they would all play. Even as recent as 2006-2007, the midfield was generally made up of Giggs-Scholes-Carrick-Ronaldo on a regular basis. Nowadays it's anyone's guess who we're going to play across the midfield four.

[phresh]

It is an absolute piss take though that somebody whose proven at the highest level, that's apparently available for a snip, who'd undoubtedly fit in, would join and we're not even interested in him... I call shenanigans personally and think that rather than Ferguson being oblivious to a lack of scorers in the middle is being restrained by what he can spend.

Little snippet for you. Net spend in 5 years since the owners came in: less than £10 million. That's in the face of near unprecedented gains from sponsorship, TV rights, 60% ticket price increases, success on the pitch. If it was a PLC still we could comfortably afford close to £100 million a year in transfers, whilst giving a profit to share holders and being in profit. Or laughably not price real fans away and turn the place into a tourist attraction, once a year day out for the customer that the place is now.

Anderson and Carrick doesn't work. Neither is properly defensive, so it ends up a fudge with neither really attacking and very little coming from them.

I've said it before but that neither United nor Liverpool, who were arguably in a much more desperate need for a creative midfielder when Alonso went, seemed remotely interested in him is enough to tell me that maybe they don't think he will be suitable for the PL.

Does that net spend include the rather ridiculous Ronaldo transfer though? It's not really an accurate reflection on the amount of money we've spent. Ferguson has said time and time again that he has had more transfer freedom under the current owners than he ever had before. That he hasn't spunked cash on player X or player Y has nothing to do with finances, we made a 35 million (Euro) bid for Benzema after all! It's all good saying we could sign all these stars but you have to remember that with that comes the massive wages that clubs like Real etc are willing to pay. As a percentage of income our wage bill probably isn't even in the top 3 in the PL and i'd be very happy if it stayed that way.

Another reason is that I think Ferguson really believes in the young players we have in the team now and those that will be with us come the end of the season. He constantly says that it is seeing the young players coming through that motivates him. It may be a little bit Arsenal-esque to say that it might take a season to develop back into world-beaters but if thats what it takes to not just sign someone who would hamper their development I have no issue with that.

Since the PL started we've only once gone more than a year without winning the title and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[bowser123]

Does that net spend include the rather ridiculous Ronaldo transfer though? It's not really an accurate reflection on the amount of money we've spent.

Naturally. Even then, if you add the money, it makes it a net spend of £20 million a season. Which is the amount the average league team spends. It's also approximately the same amount Liverpool are currently moaning about. Where has the rest gone? People always say Anderson/Nani/Hargreaves sumer as proof, forgetting those deals where no where near the price quoted as two are heavily performance related. The 50 million in sales that summer helped too.

And, I'm sorry, it is an accurate reflection of what we've spent as he isn't reusing that money we got.

Ferguson has said time and time again that he has had more transfer freedom under the current owners than he ever had before. That he hasn't spunked cash on player X or player Y has nothing to do with finances, we made a 35 million (Euro) bid for Benzema after all!

Ferguson is a liar who is toeing the company line. In a way, it's good. He could be like Scouse and openly moan, which is negative and can only cause disharmony and trouble. What are his other options? Walk and cause a meltdown, and see people he's worked with for 20 years sacked? He also surely realises that he's a large reason why the deal even occurred and should feel enormous guilt.

He also said the owners where good for the club and they've been beneficial. Do we agree with that?

Do you really, honestly believe that Ferguson can't see the issues with goals in the middle? Do you really, honestly think he's changed what he's always previously done and spent?

Benzema is a giant red herring. They offered less than what Lyon wanted, for a player they knew Madrid wanted. They also knew that the lad wanted to play for Madrid. It's like Alty bidding for Messi- they know full well the deal won't go through, though it appeases fans "that at least we tried".

It's all good saying we could sign all these stars but you have to remember that with that comes the massive wages that clubs like Real etc are willing to pay. As a percentage of income our wage bill probably isn't even in the top 3 in the PL and i'd be very happy if it stayed that way.

In principle I don't disagree or feel it's bad. It's when you look at the numbers though... if still a PLC we could spend like Madrid and still fulfill your turnover criteria.

Another reason is that I think Ferguson really believes in the young players we have in the team now and those that will be with us come the end of the season. He constantly says that it is seeing the young players coming through that motivates him. It may be a little bit Arsenal-esque to say that it might take a season to develop back into world-beaters but if thats what it takes to not just sign someone who would hamper their development I have no issue with that.

I really, really want to believe that. I do. Wellbeck will play in the summer for England apparently. He didn't get on midweek, or the opening game. Did he even make the bench. And for what... so midget gem can start. Macheda? Gibson? Campbell?

It's just that for every brilliant lad like Evans who I adore, you see more like Rossi who leave in the same season we're so short we made the move for Larrson. Who, lets be honest, was shit and ultimately futile as he went when he was most needed. It still meant Ronaldo and Rooney were over used and running on empty come the end.

What I really, really fear is that Rio is going the same way as Pally. Pally hurt his back, which led to many more niggles which ultimately stopped him having as full a career with us as he maybe could have. We bought Stam and didn't look back, but the fear is Rio goes the same only we don't have Pique anymore. Evans is better anyhow, but Pique would be brilliant back up... it's an unfair comparison really as Pique wanted to play now and is a Barca lad, but I fear seeing us being wobbly in the near to mid future.

Then again, Sol Campbell is free, good when fit, has a pedigree ete etc etc

[phresh]

Ferguson is a liar who is toeing the company line. In a way, it's good. He could be like Scouse and openly moan, which is negative and can only cause disharmony and trouble. What are his other options? Walk and cause a meltdown, and see people he's worked with for 20 years sacked? He also surely realises that he's a large reason why the deal even occurred and should feel enormous guilt.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Ferguson tow the company line? I take it you've completley forgotton about the times he did complain about the transfer budget when Edwards was in charge? Do you honestly think the Glazers have him hook line and sinker? They know Ferguson is more vauable to the club than a few million in transfer fees.

He also said the owners where good for the club and they've been beneficial. Do we agree with that?

If he has had more transfer freedom, as he has said, then they have been more beneficial.

Do you really, honestly believe that Ferguson can't see the issues with goals in the middle? Do you really, honestly think he's changed what he's always previously done and spent?

Of course not and he has said so himself. But I also think he doesn't see a stamina-less attacking midfielder who has managed 11 goals in 2 seasons (only 2 last season) as a worthwhile improvement over what we already have.

Benzema is a giant red herring. They offered less than what Lyon wanted, for a player they knew Madrid wanted. They also knew that the lad wanted to play for Madrid. It's like Alty bidding for Messi- they know full well the deal won't go through, though it appeases fans "that at least we tried".

In principle I don't disagree or feel it's bad. It's when you look at the numbers though... if still a PLC we could spend like Madrid and still fulfill your turnover criteria.

Because Madrid's last 'Galactico' era was so unbelievably succesfull?

I really, really want to believe that. I do. Wellbeck will play in the summer for England apparently. He didn't get on midweek, or the opening game. Did he even make the bench. And for what... so midget gem can start. Macheda? Gibson? Campbell?

As far as im aware Macheda is carrying a slight injury and Wellbeck was being rested after injury and the U19's tournament. Not 100% sure on the latter.

It's just that for every brilliant lad like Evans who I adore, you see more like Rossi who leave in the same season we're so short we made the move for Larrson. Who, lets be honest, was shit and ultimately futile as he went when he was most needed. It still meant Ronaldo and Rooney were over used and running on empty come the end.

This is all based around that rather generous assumption that Rossi would have actually performed in the PL. Same goes for when people bang on about how good Forlan is now.

What I really, really fear is that Rio is going the same way as Pally. Pally hurt his back, which led to many more niggles which ultimately stopped him having as full a career with us as he maybe could have. We bought Stam and didn't look back, but the fear is Rio goes the same only we don't have Pique anymore. Evans is better anyhow, but Pique would be brilliant back up... it's an unfair comparison really as Pique wanted to play now and is a Barca lad, but I fear seeing us being wobbly in the near to mid future.

How many top quality defenders can you keep happy though, especially as it's an area that sees very little rotation. I completely agree that it would be nice to have some extra quality (or at least Brown back to his 'best') but at the moment I think what we have is fine. If Rio is going to have continual problems that keep him out for weeks at a time then I agree, we possibly need to bring in an extra player. This of course assumes that neither Cathcart or any other of the reserves make the step up though.

[Liamness]

I think Anderson and Carrick are pretty similar types of players. They can take the ball on a run, and are very ambitious with the pass. As such I don't think either are best used sitting back, and they don't. Fletcher impressed many times last season in the holding role, and while I don't think either player should be completely locked into the one role, they should concentrate on one or the other. Start the game like that, and if their defence is stubborn, let Fletch join in the attack fully.

[fatbob]

I still think we could do with someone like Palacios to take hold of that centre four and can even get forward and score when he needs to. It looks like Hargreaves won't be returning that soon afterall and Fletcher, Carrick and Anderson aren't realy that type of player.

[V3zna]

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So, yeah, it's early days but that little Scouse bastard has proven a roaring success, hasn't he? Give him a chance and he'll score, he's still got the killer touch, if fit he'll grab 20 goals etc etc etc.

I make it 8 excellent chances he's fucked up thus far, about half absolutely clear cut. Munich, it's OK he's just getting started. Valencia, he'll come good, it's only pre-season. Birmingham, it's because he only had 10 minutes. Burnley, err, I didn't see any excuses for his air ball attempts at a tap in and header.

If he's not scoring he provides absolutely nothing to the team. He doesn't link play, he won't bang in crosses. He is atrocious at passing and doesn't seem a Utd player to me. Talking to somebody who I used to work with that's Scouse- he's of the opinion that when he was at his best at Liverpool, the Welsh dwarf is a bit like Rooney in that he needed 3 or 4 full in succession games to get a rhythm and confidence.

You know what I think? He doesn't give a fuck about the team, fans or league, it's all about getting a place for the World Cup. He's the exact same player I saw at Newcastle, only slightly more motivated.

Shut me up you little fuck and bag a hat trick today, please.

Owen was exactly the same when he was supposedly one of the worlds best in his early days at Liverpool. I've argued with Dude Ranch on this very forum that he's nothing like a natural deadly striker. Owen is a streaky player that never managed to break the 20 league goal barrier in his prime. He'll bang in a hattrick one week and not score again for a month. There's no point in trying to blame his lack of goals in playing for some very dodgy Liverpool sides. Robbie Fowler managed 20+ league goals and he played in some legendarily terrible Liverpool teams. But, if he gets Utd 10 goals this season from 25 appearances then how can anyone complain when he cost nothing?

[bowser123]

Fergie listened! Not.

Team apparently:

Foster

Neville

Vidic

Evans

Evra

Valencia

Fletcher

Scholes

Nani

Berbatov

Rooney

Pig

Owen

Giggs

Gibson

O'shea

Fabio

Welbeck

Park and Carrick must have been naughty to not even be in the squad. Still, it's much more like it.

[phresh]

I still think we could do with someone like Palacios to take hold of that centre four and can even get forward and score when he needs to. It looks like Hargreaves won't be returning that soon afterall and Fletcher, Carrick and Anderson aren't realy that type of player.

Only minor problem with that is that Palacios hasn't actually scored a PL goal yet. I do rate him as a more defensive midfielder but he doesn't have the vision or passing ability to play in a forward role.

Similar team to the one that played against Birmingham. I'm surprised to see Anderson, Carrick and Park out of the squad so will be interesting to see whats going on there.

[fatbob]

Only minor problem with that is that Palacios hasn't actually scored a PL goal yet.

Tell that to Hull City last week three days ago.

[phresh]

Gah, it was the case last Sunday!

[bowser123]

Phresh, sorry to paraphrase and stuff, but I don't want to get in a quote "war", especially so close to kickoff.

Maybe I am wrong over Benzema, maybe we did genuinely bid.

Madrid only paid a fraction more though, didn't they? 39M Euro, of which 9 is dependent on success I think.

Why didn't we sign him before we sold Ronaldo? Why didn't we make a prerequisite to Madrid that they keep their hands off the lad if they wanted Ron? Why didn't we offer that bit more? Sure it may be more than he's worth, but what's new about us paying that bit more?

Apparently the £80M was on the table for ages, the manager woke up one day and said it's best for him to go. If so, why didn't we bid and buy before we sold? You talk of Edwards, what about the PLC that sanctioned epic deals for Veron, Rio and Rooney, that still made a decent profit for themselves and the club weren't fucked.

Maybe Sneijder isn't right. So he's the only player on the market is he? We'll wait and see what happens, I just think it's more than coincidence that a manager that has spent big and admitted to slightly overpaying to get targets is now suddenly incredibly prudent. His hypocrisy, changes of stance and out right lies about Tevez are another oddity. I'm glad he's gone- but do you not find it strange they only bid when the guy is so fucked off he's already decided to go, and lie about previous conversations? Seems like saving face to me, or shit slinging at least.

One thing I will quote though

If he has had more transfer freedom, as he has said, then they have been more beneficial.

Disgraceful. Seriously. I'm guessing you don't go to the match, or know people that do?

I personally won't pay a penny to the club, I know people that do. They pay 60% more now, in a time of record profits. They get told fuck off for Barca in the Semi at OT, but were forced to pay £40 for a reserves match against QPR in the pissing rain. For what? A debt that's increasing, that hasn't even started to be repaid.

It's OK though, the club spend the money and Fergie has freedom... freedom to spend less now net than he did under a PLC, which was the case before Ron was sold.

[Eats hoops and leaves]

Any streams? All 3 on Iraq goals just died.

[fatbob]

Sopcast Channel - 30931 is good.