The old Man Utd Thread

[phresh]

Arsenal in the CL semis?

I don't think we should read tooooo much into the last two performances in that they have both been against newly promoted teams, slightly unknown forces and playing defensive 4-5-1 formations.

[sith]

Fatbob might as well pay me now!

[a big boy]

It's true - playing newly promoted teams at the start of the season can be tough. But I also agree that - Rooney aside - there's a general lack of dynamism both in midfield and going forward that both Ronaldo and Tevez were apt to provide. It's really unbelievable that the devestating Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo trio of 07-08 has been broken up quickly.

I'm not sure how much you'll appreciate the reference, but I remember Mascherano saying of Liverpool's CL tie with Real Madrid that they knew Robben and Higuain were the only players in that team with pace, so if they managed to keep those two out the game - and obvs otherwise keep the likes of Sneijder running the show from the centre - they could be sure Madrid would run out of ideas pretty quickly. So basically, you're like that except instead of Robben and Higuain you've only got Rooney

...Or maybe Valencia will step up. How's he been getting on?

[dizogg]

At the weekend it was Liverpool, now its Man Utd. Suddenly you're a rag tag bunch of no-hopers after you lose one game. People saying "where did this season all go wrong?". Get a grip.

I just hope its Chelsea that gets this treatment next week.

[DC Lemon]

They need a motivator, a Cantona, a Keane, BADLY. Giggs is not it. Scholes is not it. A man to give players like Nani and Carrick a kick when they start to wander.

You're right and it's blatantly obvious, as it regularly was last year. John O'Shea was captain at the weekend. How can a utility player be expected to lead a team with any authority? But there were no suitable applicants out there this summer who Sir Alex was able to spend his £80m on, so I approve of him waiting for the right man to come along even if it does make this a transitional season. Chelsea have got the league sewn up this year anyway, stronger and with more hunger, so no need to bust a gut...

I said after the Birmingham match that there was no spark either from the players or fans. If this result can't ignite it, then nothing will. We get to play at climbing the table now. We're coming for you, Fulham and Wigan!

[oli]

The only disappointing thing was Carrick being the penalty taker. You'd have thought with Rooney, Anderson, Giggs and even Owen on the pitch we had plenty of better candidates

[barkbat]

Hargreaves just might have been the Keano heir if he could keep off the operating table. He certainly kept England revving during that woeful world cup.

Also this is Arsenal's season. Not chelsea's.

[The Fox]

At the weekend it was Liverpool, now its Man Utd. Suddenly you're a rag tag bunch of no-hopers after you lose one game. People saying "where did this season all go wrong?". Get a grip.

I just hope its Chelsea that gets this treatment next week.

Everyone can just edit their articles and blog posts from the weekend and just replace 'Benitez' with 'Ferguson'!

Nah to be fair I would have thought there were a fair few people who thought United and Liverpool might not do quite so well this year (I had them as second and fourth respectively in my pre-season prediction). United really miss something in midfield which was shown up badly against Barcelona and will only be exacerbated by Ronaldo's departure. I meant what I said about Darren Fletcher, and for all his usefulness, when a player as ultimately limited as him has been your best midfielder for some time then you should know you have a problem.

Is Sneijder the answer? Sign him and suddenly your midfield would look a lot less blunt, although I wonder if his game is really suited to a flat 4-4-2.

[Guest]

We all know that after Christmas Man U galvanise and transform into a Devastator-style machine that crushes all in it's path.

Except Barcelona.

So, not to worry Manc fans. You'll be back, and in greater numbers.

[phresh]

It's true - playing newly promoted teams at the start of the season can be tough. But I also agree that - Rooney aside - there's a general lack of dynamism both in midfield and going forward that both Ronaldo and Tevez were apt to provide. It's really unbelievable that the devestating Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo trio of 07-08 has been broken up quickly.

I assume you didn’t watch us play last season? Last nights performance was on a par with most of how we played for most of last season, Tevez and Ronaldo included. The lack of dynamism in midfield is, in my opinion, due more to inconsistency of selection than a general lack of quality. It’s one area of rotation that hasn’t really paid off. The frustrating thing is that nearly every player who plays in the centre looks good after a run of games (apart from Giggs who plays great regardless, and did again yesterday) and then they need to be rested and it sets the team back again. The influence this then has on the strikers and wingers is what causes the lack of dynamism rather than the strikers or wingers lacking it in the first place.

I'm not sure how much you'll appreciate the reference, but I remember Mascherano saying of Liverpool's CL tie with Real Madrid that they knew Robben and Higuain were the only players in that team with pace, so if they managed to keep those two out the game - and obvs otherwise keep the likes of Sneijder running the show from the centre - they could be sure Madrid would run out of ideas pretty quickly. So basically, you're like that except instead of Robben and Higuain you've only got Rooney

This applies to most teams in the end though. Chelsea, with Essien, did a number on Gerrard in their first leg CL tie and it drastically reduced the effectiveness of Liverpool’s frontline. I don’t think United’s problem is that teams are able to do this against us, rather we don’t have the players (or system) to do this to other teams.

...Or maybe Valencia will step up. How's he been getting on?

He has done well in pre-season. Long-term he will be an excellent right wing replacement for Ronaldo but I doubt he’ll ever be able to cut inside as effectively as his left foot doesn’t look particularly strong. When given space to run in behind defenders he will cause havoc but that wasn’t going to happen in the last two games. One of the positives of having Valencia in the side will be the increased defensive protection he will offer to Rafael when he is fit again.

I said a month or so ago that I saw last season as a transitional one and it many ways I was right, we had a lot of young players make debuts and if it wasn’t for the defense it was unlikely we would have won the league. I thought (or hoped) that our midfield consistency would be sorted out this season but that doesn’t appear to be the case. We’ve still got 3 more players to join us this season too (Obertan from injury, Diouf and Ljajic in January) so there is something to look forward to even if it isn’t our performance on the field!

[MojoChin]

The one thing that bothers me so much is that Fergie decided to experiment in the first 2 matches of the season, in saying that the first match we had closer to a first choice XI. But you look at the team last night and there was only Evra, Carrick and Rooney that would get in to a fully fit Utd first XI! That is fucking ridiculous!

I know we have a good squad but surely we need at least half the outfield players to be first choice?! No?!

Foster, is a great keeper but may have a wee nervy moment now and again. Last night's bobble was nothing big in reality and he was decisive in the air and commanding when required.

The back line was a shambles. Brown has completely lost the plot, Evans was solid, O'Shea was ok but nothing more than a 3rd choice right back and Evra was his usual great. Bringing Neville on when we are 1-0 down and its the final sub is completely baffling. Fergie needs to do an Ol' Yeller on Neville.

The midfield lacked any consistancy or battle. Giggs was the stand out performer in midfield but still really didn't perform. Carrick's passing was poor. Anderson still needs his vision and passing to convene together. Either he spots a pass but doesn't make it or he makes a great pass but there is maybe someone in a better position. The less said about Park the better. Why Valencia didn't come on for Park is completely baffling. Park was woeful and has been for a while, he has done fuck all of any worth that I can remember recently. He may be ok when we are 1-0 up, chasing back and the likes, but he provides absolutely fuck all going forward and it seems some of the basic skills have left him.

Rooney, as most people have said, was playing far too deep when playing with Owen. But if we had a midfield that could win the ball maybe he wouldn't need to. Owen looked ok, missed a sitter though in the first minute or so, I missed the first few minutes. But he also missed that header as well. Once he gets a goal he'll be fine I reckon. But I don't think he should have started. Berbatov, when he came on, changed the game around for us. His touches, passing, movement and vision were what we sadly missed up until that point. But when Berbatov came on he was obviously instructed to play deep and wide, like in the Birmingham game. This is not where he should be playing, he should be in and around the box, with Rooney slightly behind. (Not as deep as last night.) But Fergie doesn't see this for some reason. Berb played best at Spurs up top with Keane in behind. This situation would suit Rooney and Berb perfect but Fergie plays the roles reversed.

End of the day Fergie needs to stop the experimenting. He can't blame the raft of changes on burn out, it's only the second match of the fucking season. Fletcher, Valencia, Nani and Berbatov should have all started. Probably Fabio for Brown as well, with O'Shea moving to the centre. Not only was there only 3 first choice players that started, there was 6 changes from the previous match. You aren't Benitez, Fergie and we aren't Liverpool. He might have thought, "It's only Burnley." But that has came back and bit him on the ass.

Don't get me wrong, I thought we performed ok in patches, and probably could (should) have won the game. Also, it is not the be all and end all of the season. We never start well, last year we drew with Newcastle and Chelsea and lost to Liverpool. Granted none of that is really on par with last night's result but maybe its the kick up the ass we need.

[BeeJay]

I know you guys have a history of starting slowly but last night was a little extreme. This is what makes me so sad that we couldn't get points from Spurs on the weekend. We will need to be a fair way ahead going into the new year as you always come good at that point. I think it's a fair point about the lack of dynamism that has been there since last season for you guys. How the hell you managed to win so many last season I will never know. Maybe it was the ronaldo/tevez factor. I guess only time will tell.

I think it's way too early to make any judgements about Valencia. Foreign players in the wing/forward areas have a history of starting slowly in the premiership.

[The Fox]

I think it's way too early to make any judgements about Valencia. Foreign players in the wing/forward areas have a history of starting slowly in the premiership.

You know what I'm going to say here don't you...

[The Fox]

dp

[BeeJay]

You know what I'm going to say here don't you...

dp?

No, I don't know what you are going to say? Ronaldo, maybe? Henry?

[oli]

Valencia has been playing at Wigan for what, 2 years?

[BeeJay]

Valencia has been playing at Wigan for what, 2 years?

Yeah, but, with respect to the mighty Wigan, it's still a little different.

It would be much easier if I just played the windup card though and went Valencilol but I had genuinely forgot that he came from Wigan.

[oli]

He needs to adapt to life at United as opposed to life in the Premier League

[Mr Do 71]

He needs to adapt to life at United as opposed to life in the Premier League

And Berbatov needs to adapt to scoring

[MojoChin]

And Berbatov needs to adapt to scoring

No, he needs to be played in the correct position.

[fatbob]

Wonder if Fergie is working on something, a Silva a Young, something with some pace and penetration. Slim and none chances though. We realy are lacking that this season. Its sad to see how much slower we are going forward so far this year, although I think we were slower going forward last season than the season before too.

[Gringo]

Last year Utd were very static and slow in attack. This year seems to be the same but they dont have Ronaldo to fire in thunderbolts. Rooney and Berba need to stay forward. Drop deep only to relive pressure and spring counter attacks. An advanced playmaker is needed. Im not convinced Carrick can fulfill this position. Another problem with the midfield is that Carrick/Fletcher and Anderson are all neither pure defensive mid or attacking.

[oli]

Last year Utd were very static and slow in attack. This year seems to be the same but they dont have Ronaldo to fire in thunderbolts. Rooney and Berba need to stay forward. Drop deep only to relive pressure and spring counter attacks. An advanced playmaker is needed. Im not convinced Carrick can fulfill this position. Another problem with the midfield is that Carrick/Fletcher and Anderson are all neither pure defensive mid or attacking.

I think of all three Anderson should have the greatest potential to become a proper attacking midfielder, though it seems he's been deployed more as a defensive midfielder at United, perhaps to improve his all round game?

[a big boy]

Didn't watch you if I could help it

I just meant with Ronaldo and Tevez gone the number of players not just of quality - of course you can say any team will miss two of their best players - but of paceit and qaulity that has diminished. When you had Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo the way you'd stretch teams, run at defences and catch them on the break (and all the other bollocks) scared just about everyone absolutely shitless. Losing everyone but Rooney from that means its much easier for a well organised defence to deal with you... Berbatov and even Owen have their qualities that will no doubt keep you 'there or there abouts' but it's not gonna be the same.

In the end, though, Ferguson's probably right not to immediatly splurge Ronaldo's £80 mill on Ribery if he's confident of picking him up for £30 or whatever in a much more sensible transfer window next season. And a season in transition where you still stand a very decent chance of walking away with the Prem or CL isn't a bad position to be in at all.

[MojoChin]

I think of all three Anderson should have the greatest potential to become a proper attacking midfielder, though it seems he's been deployed more as a defensive midfielder at United, perhaps to improve his all round game?

It was said that he was used in a defensive position last season to accomodate Ronaldo, even Anderson came out and said that he didn't mind it so long as the team did well. But Ronaldo ain't here no more and he's still used in the same capacity. The Scholesy role is the one he played for Porto, I why I thought we bought him, and he's even played in the same role for Brazil! (And been very good.)

[oli]

It was said that he was used in a defensive position last season to accomodate Ronaldo, even Anderson came out and said that he didn't mind it so long as the team did well. But Ronaldo ain't here no more and he's still used in the same capacity. The Scholesy role is the one he played for Porto, I why I thought we bought him, and he's even played in the same role for Brazil! (And been very good.)

Well yes, as I understand it he played for the Brazilian youth teams (and briefly at Gremio and Porto) he played in the traditional attacking midfield role and was seen as a Ronaldinho/Kaka figure in the Brazilian youth set up

[MojoChin]

Well yes, as I understand it he played for the Brazilian youth teams (and briefly at Gremio and Porto) he played in the traditional attacking midfield role and was seen as a Ronaldinho/Kaka figure in the Brazilian youth set up

And for the senior team!

[Gringo]

I just dont know if Anderson's range of passing is good enough for the role tho. Can be very lax or over hit passes often.

[MojoChin]

I just dont know if Anderson's range of passing is good enough for the role tho. Can be very lax or over hit passes often.

Did you not read my rant above?!

No his passing isn't the best at the minute, but we need to remember that, if we want Anderson to play in the Scholes role, he has time to mature. Scholes made his debut when he was 20 and certainly didn't mature into the role for another few years after that. Anderson is only 21 now remember. He has the potential and the time to realise it and I'd be happy to give hime the time. He can certainly produce good performances at the minute, but is also playing basically out of position.

Anderson will be a great, I guarentee it.

[phresh]

Didn't watch you if I could help it

I just meant with Ronaldo and Tevez gone the number of players not just of quality - of course you can say any team will miss two of their best players - but of paceit and qaulity that has diminished. When you had Tevez-Rooney-Ronaldo the way you'd stretch teams, run at defences and catch them on the break (and all the other bollocks) scared just about everyone absolutely shitless. Losing everyone but Rooney from that means its much easier for a well organised defence to deal with you... Berbatov and even Owen have their qualities that will no doubt keep you 'there or there abouts' but it's not gonna be the same.

We haven't decreased the size of the squad though and the only pace we've lost is Tevez's, Valencia is lightning quick. The loss of quality is there for all to see although again I don't really see Tevez's loss as having a massive impact. Owen may not of scored yesterday but the runs he made off the defense were inifinitely more intelligent than anything Tevez did last season. Focusing on the wings and front line is pointless though as I think most people will agree that the problem is in the heart of midfield, we haven't been able to effectively control a game in aaagggesss. If we can sort that out I think the rest of teh team will flourish, regardless of who plays.

Well yes, as I understand it he played for the Brazilian youth teams (and briefly at Gremio and Porto) he played in the traditional attacking midfield role and was seen as a Ronaldinho/Kaka figure in the Brazilian youth set up

In all fairness he only played about 20 games combined at Gremio/Porto. I'd really like to see him play in midfield with Hargreaves, that could be a combination that would work really well. I think Anderson was a victim of his own performances in many ways, he played so well in a semi-defensive midfield role in his first season that it just stuck really. My worry is that in a standard 4-4-2 we haven't got anyone who will just sit in behind him. Fletcher can in theory although he is increasingly going on attacking forays leaving Scholes or Carrick to mop up at the back.

I just dont know if Anderson's range of passing is good enough for the role tho. Can be very lax or over hit passes often.

Thats just his passing style I think, he does often play it on the outside of his boot which looks lazy, Berbatov often does the same.

I just wonder what it will take for Ferguson to take the midfield by the scruff of the neck and really nail down 2 or 3 combinations of players who can get used to working together and benefit the rest of the players around them.