The old Man Utd Thread

[Poppalarge]

Its odd that Giggs won it this year tbh, however I'm very pleased for him.

Its more odd that he's never won it before.

[Guest]

I watched the match on Saturday and I'm still baffled why anyone would complain about us being awarded the penalty. Even after the replays, it still looks to me as though Carrick moves the ball then Gomes takes him out.

The ref only got to see if once, from pretty far way, so he did what he though was right.

I didn't get to see the slo-mo stuff on MoTD either, so I've no idea what that shows.

Seems like a bit of an over-reaction to me.

[Trigg]

It wasn't a penalty for me. Carrick does get a touch, but Gomes does too. And I'd very upset if it was against my team thats for sure.

On the grand scheme of things I don't think it mattered though, after they scored the second goal, we were pretty much on top of things, we looked dangerous and the fact they sat back and decided to waste time with 60 minutes left in the match didn't help their cause.

Its easy for Harry to say the penalty won us the game but I think he's its shirking the blame from himself and his players. We might not have won 5-2, who knows but even after the second goal went in from Modric I thought we still had a chance of winning and we looked good for some goals.

If a penalty decision in a 5-2 win plays a huge part a the game, we've got problems.

---

Congratulations to Giggs too, He's been fantastic this season whenever he's played and while I'd have given the award to Vidic I wouldn't begrudge Giggs getting it instead.

[barkbat]

The fact is - before the penalty Carrick was unmarked and one-on-one with Gomez. The game had already changed. Man U were dominant and looking to score.

[Liamness]

Its odd that Giggs won it this year tbh, however I'm very pleased for him.

Its more odd that he's never won it before.

Well he's always been outshone by someone or other hasn't he? Usually in his own team. Maybe he's been wonderfully consistent over the years, but other players were noticed more at the time. Anyway I think he's had a great season so far, won't mean much to him if we don't get some more trophies though.

[Reynard]

The game had already changed. Man U were dominant and looking to score.

On the grand scheme of things I don't think it mattered though, after they scored the second goal, we were pretty much on top of things, we looked dangerous and the fact they sat back and decided to waste time with 60 minutes left in the match didn't help their cause.

Its easy for Harry to say the penalty won us the game but I think he's its shirking the blame from himself and his players. We might not have won 5-2, who knows but even after the second goal went in from Modric I thought we still had a chance of winning and we looked good for some goals.

I don't want to keep going on about it, but you can't say that for sure. It's easy for you to say now that "We would've won anyway", but it's also possible that Spurs may've kept you out for a bit longer and gained confidence that they could see the game out. You probably would've scored at some stage and you might've grabbed a second and may be even a late winner. But we don't know that and we'll never know that because the referee intervened and influenced the game.

I think most people are making a big deal about it because of who it was awarded to and what effect it might have had on the title race. It's not as if it was given during a game like the Everton v Man City one - it's naturally going to be under scrutiny more.

Anyway, just trying to give a perspective, as most Man United fans seem strangely bemused as to why there's an issue with this particular decision.

[phresh]

I don't want to keep going on about it, but you can't say that for sure. It's easy for you to say now that "We would've won anyway", but it's also possible that Spurs may've kept you out for a bit longer and gained confidence that they could see the game out. You probably would've scored at some stage and you might've grabbed a second and may be even a late winner. But we don't know that and we'll never know that because the referee intervened and influenced the game.

EDIT: After re-reading your post you are more or less saying the same as I am below...

This works both ways though. Just as we can't say for sure that we would have gone onto win without the penalty neither can opposition fans say that we wouldn't have gone onto win. You can apply this just as easily to your first goal with Hull and in fact pretty much any game this season where there has been a remotely contentious decision.

The issue is that most fans are utterly incapable of seeing the middle ground.

[Bleeders]

I read Jenas was moaning about the decision as well, it seems to have escaped him that Spurs were 2-1 to the good at the time, so whose to blame for the other four goals they conceeded?

[Reynard]

This works both ways though. Just as we can't say for sure that we would have gone onto win without the penalty neither can opposition fans say that we wouldn't have gone onto win. You can apply this just as easily to your first goal with Hull and in fact pretty much any game this season where there has been a remotely contentious decision.

Yeah, I totally understand what you're saying (although there's a big difference between the two situations and ours was questionable rather than outright wrong - yeah, I know he fell over, but he was kicked on the way down. It's the sort of incident you wouldn't bat an eyelid at if it happened in the middle of the park and didn't end with a goal).

I agree with you and that's the point I'm making: opposition fans can't say for sure what would've happened, but neither can you. Saying "We would've won anyway" is purely speculative.

[phresh]

I completely agree with you and in the case of both events it's fans trying to predict the events that suit their cause the most.

[Reynard]

I completely agree with you and in the case of both events it's fans trying to predict the events that suit their cause the most.

Exactly - we're both just speculating, which was my only point really (in reference to some of you claiming that you would've won anyway).

EDIT: Oh right, yeah, I just saw your edit. Yeah, sorry - I could've made my point clearer.

Anyway...

Er...I don't know whether to wish you luck for Arsenal in the CL - it may be best for us (as far as the league goes) for you to remain in the competition.

[fatbob]

What most people still moaning about this fairly average penalty seem to be saying is that Spurs were too heart broken to keep playing after the dodgey decision. A decision like this happens every week, refs don't have the hindsight of replays, alternative zoomed in angles and slow-mo. If this was in the City vs Everton match it wouldn't get a mention.

Just seems to me odd that a penalty decision would have such a great effect on the game as to make Spurs supposedly stop playing and roll over another 4 goals in 20 odd minutes. Not saying it had no impact, panalties and sending offs are often a catalyst for a change, but I think all this blame being put on the referee by the likes of Redknapp and players is kind of silly. Like I say, hes only human, they make mistakes, were any of us in his place we couldn't say we wouldn't have seen the same. Indeed, it took me a few times slowed down to see who touched it last. Maybe the Spurs management and team should concentrate more on being able to respond to a turn in the game (which is part of the game and effects every single team) and not feel sorry for themselves if that is what realy made them loose.

Corruption? (talk in the football thread)

Edit: This isn't specifically at anyone, i'm just late posting my thoughts, sorry if i go over old ground.

[Trigg]

I didn't mean my comment as "we would have won anyway". I did think we'd win the game though as it happens, just one of those feelings you get every now and then.

I just think that Spurs and dodgy Harry are using the soft penalty as an excuse. Our tails were up before the penalty award, and Spurs were pretty much time wasting from the moment they scored (or it seemed that way to me).

The decision was a poor one, I agree. It wasn't a penalty, but thats no reason for them to fall to pieces and let in another 4. We played extremely well to get back into the game, and we got a bit of fortune along the way. I didn't see it as a decisive moment in the game if I'm honest and I don't follow Harry's view that it was 'the' turning point.

[Reynard]

Yeah, they were totally the ones at fault for the collapse. I guess we're just speculating again there to say one way or the other. Maybe the pressure got to them or perhaps they were so crestfallen/gutted about the injustice of the penalty that they lost their heads (the fact that Gomes was 'responsible' for the penalty might have affected him as it looked like he was at fault for a couple of the following goals after looking good prior to then).

You've got to put yourself in their shoes a bit; big game, they're 2-nil up at OT and up against a below-par, but determined, Man United - it's got to be a nervy and high-pressured occasion, especially with their record at your place. You get the pen and score and your crowd of 70-odd thousand get a massive lift - the build up of pressure at that point has got to be huge.

Regardless, Spurs shouldn't have folded like that.

You were bound to be quick out of the blocks at the beginning of the second half - a lot of teams would be like that if they were 2-down at home in an important match. But Spurs looked like they may've been weathering the storm until the pen (again, speculation, I know! ).

Right, I'll leave you boys to it - soz for banging on.

[DC Lemon]

Those cheating Potters!

[fatbob]

Cheeky Stoke

[Reynard]

Those things are bollocks - just like Winter's version:

Pos Team P GD Pts Actual League Pos

1 Chelsea 32 35 71 3

2 Man Utd 31 33 69 1

3 Liverpool 32 34 68 2

4 Arsenal 32 22 58 4

5 Aston Villa 33 8 55 5

6 Everton 32 12 52 6

7 Fulham 33 3 47 8

8 Man City 33 4 43 10

9 Sunderland 33 -8 43 15

10 Tottenham 33 0 42 9

11 West Ham 33 0 40 7

12 Hull City 33 -13 39 16

13 Bolton 33 -10 38 13

14 Wigan 32 -5 37 11

15 Middlesbrough 33 -16 36 18

16 Portsmouth 32 -9 34 14

17 Newcastle 33 -17 33 19

18 Stoke City 33 -21 31 12

19 Blackburn 33 -19 29 17

20 West Brom 33 -39 22 20

They're as speculative as the stuff we're talking about.

LOL at Stoke - wasn't looking at the bottom (oo-er!).

[Gabzy]

Rafael extends contract at Manchester United

He's signed to stay until at least 2013. Great news He's a joy to watch and I can't wait to see him next season with a bit more strength and experience.

Former Manchester United assistant coach Carlos Queiroz is investigating the possibility of picking Rafael for Portugal before he is selected for the full Brazil side. Both he and Fabio qualify through a Portuguese grandmother

Even better news

[fatbob]

Rafael signs new deal.

Interesting how he has made such a big impact in his first season while his more highly rated brother has not been offered the same deal. Hes been realy fucking unlucky with injuries, and of course left back is a more sound area with Pat than on our right.

Hope he gets some more games so they can stay together.

EDIT: *Shakes fist at Gabz*

[Gabzy]

Great minds think alike, eh?

[phresh]

Fabio has been far more unlucky with injuries. If he can stay fit i'd expect him to get a few more games next season at the expense of O'Shea. Evra has started to look tired at times this season and to have Fabio as a more regular backup would be awesome. EIther way it's great to see Rafael sign on for longer!

[ckny]

I love Rafael but come on, he's got a lot to learn. He rushes in to every tackle, sticks his leg out, gets caught of position every time (but has the pace to get back) and seems to get booked every game.

But fuck me do I love him.

[Trigg]

Yeah, Fabio as been very unlucky with injuries this year. He's fit at the moment as he played in the reserves against Newcastle last week, might see him in the next few games if/when we rest players.

He does seem the better of the two as well as rumored when they both arrived. He's a lot more composed I know that much, everything Rafael does is at 100MPH!

Both bright prospects and I fully expect them to represent Brazil in the future (despite what Queiroz and Gabzy think, even though I read that Rafael would consider it. )

[Gabzy]

So what? It's not like we're losing anything by keeping him for another season, and Ferguson obviously feels he still has something to give to the club. I dare say he knows him better than we do.

[fatbob]

Exactly, if SAF didn't see anything in him he wouldn't be (and won't be) there.

At least he still wants to be here, as i've said before, we are one of the lucky clubs that can give players a while to pan out. Ronaldo was equally eratic in his first couple of seasons.

He may never be great, but from what i've seen he has potential, he just needs to work through his shortcomings.

[ckny]

So I see Nani wants to stay

Fucks sake. We could fleece Real for £10m and buy someone who can play 11 a side professional football instead.

[Trigg]

Nani was great last season for us, he's just had a difficult year this time round. He's struggled to get into the team for whatever reasons and when he has he's had little play time and found it difficult to find any form.

I'm a bit surprised that he hasn't featured in the reserves more often to get him some games under his belt. I'm still confident that given the chance, by fans and the manager, he'll make it at Manchester United.

[Trigg]

So, with Sir Alex mentioning in his press conference he's tempted to start with Tevez, Rooney, Berbatov and Ronaldo after the impact the four of them made against Spurs what do you think the chances of them all starting are?

Personally, I'd like to see it. Its not much different to to the way we've played throughout this season really, it does mean Rooney will be moved from the strikers position which is a shame but Rooney is our best winger behind Ronaldo.

I 'm not so sure it'll happen tonight, I reckon we'll go with a 3 man central midfield (Anderson, Giggs and the one of Fletcher/Carrick) but I just thought I get some other people opinions, and see what they thought of the prospect of the fantastic four (think thats what they called them at the beginning of the season) all starting together.

[Gabzy]

I'd love to see it. Rooney is fantastic on the wing and he can always cut inside. The prospect of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez having free roles up front, interchanging throughout the game with Berbatov holding up the ball and making runs into the box...it'd definitely make for an exciting game

[oli]

I'd love to see it. Rooney is fantastic on the wing and he can always cut inside. The prospect of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez having free roles up front, interchanging throughout the game with Berbatov holding up the ball and making runs into the box...it'd definitely make for an exciting game

It'd be good to see and I think we'd do pretty well playing like that, I just can't see Fergie doing it though Unfortunately I think there's more chance of me turning out tonight