The old Man Utd Thread

[fatbob]

I think Park will start too.

I think it will go something like this:

-----------------VDS

Neville ---Rio/Evans--Vidic---Evra

Park ----Fletcher----Carrick---Giggs

------------------------Rooney

---------------Ronaldo

Although, maybe a start for Tevez somewhere in there...

I have a feeling Berbatov might be on the bench this time, he looked well off it at the weekend.

[phresh]

Yeah, I can't see him going 4-3-3 again. Fletcher was probably out best performer last week so him and Carrick in the centre with Park and Ronaldo out wide and Giggs and Rooney upfront.

Last week we let too much go down the left which Park should be able to help with and I felt we didn't exploit thegaps down their right enough (despite Fletcher doing a sterling job!). I think Giggs close control and dribbling will be far more beneficial in front of their defense.

[barkbat]

I have revised my no-Park stance.

The first leg was SO open, with so much counter-attacking oppertunities, that a fast palyer like Park has got to start.

However, I also feel Berba, with his hanging in the final third style, will feature.

SAF will probably start with Rooney-Ronaldo up front, but I imagine that, if the goal doesn't come, he'll take Park off, stick Ronaldo where Park was, get Rooney to step back a few yards, and then have Berba as a sort of lone striker to pick up long balls and lay it back.

[McFly]

Park is a very good player/hard worker pity he couldnt finish his dinner or he'd be a massive threat for us. I'd take him over Nani on the wing everytime.

I think Fergie will go with Tevez and Rooney up front with Ronaldo, Fletcher, Carsick and Park in the midfield. And if he's fit swap Neville for Rio and stick Evans at RB

[fatbob]

Evans at right back?

Instead of Neville or O'Shea? .... or even Fabio?

Has he ever even player there?

Thats mental.

[McFly]

Thought the twins were both injured And just forgot about O'Shea lol so yeah go with him not Evans

[Trigg]

Fairly sure Evans as played at left full back a few times when on loan at Sunderland.

O'Shea at right back for me though, it's very rare he'll let you down in defence.

[fatbob]

Apparently Fabio isn't injured, not sure why he isn't featuring more.

[phresh]

Me neither, I suspect it may just be a reluctance to mess with the defense any more than is really required.

Evans has played at RB a couple of times this season I think, although only due to substitutions/injury not as a starting position. Did alright if you ask me, decent ball control and a bit of pace.

[moss]

Tell you what guys, we can play as shite as we want as long as we win. In fact, in my twisted reality i'd love it if we won the league playing diabolically bad and getting last minute winners with Liverpool and Chelsea playing wonderous football. It would make me laugh.

Ha ha, yes, I know what you mean. Imagine everyone else's despair as Man Utd trudge tediously towards victory.

[Majora]

O'Shea at right back for me though, it's very rare he'll let you down in defence.

Like that amazing backpass the other day I don't think O'Shea is good enough to be honest but in the absence of Brown and Rafael he'll have to do. I wonder how he feels knowing he's little more than a utility player when we have an injury crisis.

[fatbob]

I guess he'd rather be a utility player at a great club than an average midfielder or defender at an ok club.

He can hardly sniff at the amount of games hes had this year. This is old ground, but we need the John O'Sheas as much as the Ronaldos.

[McFly]

I agree with you fatbob, i know i'd rather be a squad player winning loads of stuff at Man Utd than be say Scot Parker etc

[Majora]

Yeah but if people really loved their football you'd think they would rather play more games. Fair enough, O'Shea has played quite a lot recently but that's mainly been due to the injury situation. I don't think he's even second choice in any position on the field. Possibly left-back but that'll probably go to Fabio soon. He's a third choice player at best and personally winning winner's medals would feel rather hollow to me knowing I was forever playing a bit-part. Still he's the one earning thousands a week, not me.

[a big boy]

I agree with you fatbob, i know i'd rather be a squad player winning loads of stuff at Man Utd than be say Scot Parker etc

Na, Scott Parker plays week in week out, developing his game to the very best of his ability and isn't content with anything less. Like a true professional. When he plays in the UEFA Cup with West Ham he'll do so as one of the mainstays of their side, and one of the main reasons they got there in the first place. When John O'shea either takes his place on the bench in Porto or contrives not to embarrass himself against superior opposition while a nervous energy fills his supporters stand every time his winger takes a run at him, he'll know he doesn't belong there and in all likelihood the club would win just as many trophies were his spot taken by a reserve or someone from the academy. It might look more ambitious hanging around a club like Man U, but when you're never going win your managers confidence and even have a single season as first choice in whatever his position is, you're sitting in the back seat and you're comfortable.

I remember there being reports that Capello was worried at the lack of ambition shown by Foster being content to sit on the bench and play in the Carling Cup. As it stands he's in the squad based on raw talent and a dearth of quality in his position, but if he isn't first choice at United next season (and what are the chances?) he needs to hand in a transfer request and move mid-table or, if he can't find someone in the Prem, and heaven forbid, abroad.

[ckny]

O'Shea's a more than competent player who mucks in at any of the defensive positions or centre midfield and always puts in an accomplished performance. He doesn't pick up plaudits because he doesn't play that sort of game. He's a vital member of our squad and one I'd be sad to lose. So let's stop getting on his back over nothing, he's done very well this season and played in most of the 14 games without conceding earlier in the year.

In other news, some fixtures have been rescheduled:

Three of United's forthcoming fixtures have been re-arranged, including home games against Manchester City and Arsenal.

But the Reds' first match to be affected by Sky Sports' selections is the away trip to Middlesbrough. Originally scheduled for Saturday 2 May, the game will now be played on Sunday 3 May at 16:00 BST. However, should United reach the UEFA Champions League semi-final stage, this game will revert to 12:45 BST on Saturday 2 May.

It's no surprise Sky have also chosen to broadcast the Manchester derby. Their selection means the game will now be played 24 hours later, on Sunday 10 May at 13:30 BST.

Finally, the kick-off has been brought forward for Arsenal's visit to OT on Saturday 16 May. The titans will now clash at 12:45 BST, with Sky again showing the match.

http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid=...;newsid=6630444

The only real change is an extra days rest for the derby.

[fatbob]

I remember there being reports that Capello was worried at the lack of ambition shown by Foster being content to sit on the bench and play in the Carling Cup. As it stands he's in the squad based on raw talent and a dearth of quality in his position, but if he isn't first choice at United next season (and what are the chances?) he needs to hand in a transfer request and move mid-table or, if he can't find someone in the Prem, and heaven forbid, abroad.

Why though? If he VDS is first choice next season, then will he be the next year? I think most people think hes past it now even. Foster playing on Saturday said a lot about SAF's confidence in Foster, it was never going to be an easy game, and especially with our out of form and mostly injured defence. Since when do goalkeepers get rested, especially in an important game if this is not the beggining of a transitional stage between the two keepers?

Why would Foster hand in a transfer request when he was so close to the big job? Why not a couple of seasons ago when he was the talk of the town after returning from brilliant loan spells?

It would be incredibly short-sighted of him to want to leave, call it a lack of ambition if you will, but its I think by leaving for a smaller club rather than working and waiting for the big job would show a lot less ambition, he going to be goal-keeping (hopefully here) for another decade or so afterall.

Capello has his own job to worry about, and wanting Ben Foster to get more games is in his interests as England don't have adecent full time keeper. Capello isn't looking out for the interests of United or even Foster's long term prospects, as he has made it clear this job will probably be his last before he retires, after the World Cup. He is only interested in the England perspective, and rightly so.

If he isn't at least sharing the #1 job with VDS next season, then by all means put him out on loan to get into the England squad, as VDS ain't going to be there more than another year.

Again, I just think it would be incredibly short-sighted to throw away his chance, and what hes been working so hard on doing over one tournament. And I respect him for it, it shows judgement and charachter, not lazyness.

[phresh]

Why all the John O'Shea hate

To say he stays at the squad through lack of ambition and just to pick up 'easy' trophies that anyone could win just by being in his place is absolutely retarded.

Like all the players at United he wants to improve and be good enough to be first choice. Surely trying to overtake Evra as first choice left-back is far more ambitious than dropping down the league to nail a first team place. I also think people undervalue players capable of playing in a multitude of positions, something O'Shea is more than capable of.

[Mars]

I agree with that, well said phresh.

[McFly]

Why all the John O'Shea hate

To say he stays at the squad through lack of ambition and just to pick up 'easy' trophies that anyone could win just by being in his place is absolutely retarded.

Like all the players at United he wants to improve and be good enough to be first choice. Surely trying to overtake Evra as first choice left-back is far more ambitious than dropping down the league to nail a first team place. I also think people undervalue players capable of playing in a multitude of positions, something O'Shea is more than capable of.

I wasnt having ago at him for picking up easy trophies, i agree with you completely you just said it more articulately than me

O'Shea does the unglamourous work thats asked of him very well (more often than not), never complains and has chipped in some very valuable goals in his time.

As for learning and improving surely as a player you'll learn more by being around fantastic players day in day out than being a "star" starting player at a lower club, never having his job being threatened, thats as much a sign of an unabitious comfort player in my eyes as what A Big Boy is accusing Foster of, at least he's waiting for the TOP job, not for a nobody team.

[a big boy]

Capello has his own job to worry about, and wanting Ben Foster to get more games is in his interests as England don't have adecent full time keeper. Capello isn't looking out for the interests of United or even Foster's long term prospects, as he has made it clear this job will probably be his last before he retires, after the World Cup. He is only interested in the England perspective, and rightly so.

You've answered your own question here. Capello's concern is that Foster become the best player he can. Surely as a professional Foster's should be the same?

This is what I was saying with Parker, he could probably still be at Chelsea plugging away in the reserves and the Carling Cup waiting for his big break if he really wanted to, but after trying and failing there he's found his level as a mainstay at a mid-table club, and I'm sure for the experience it's given him he's a better player for it.

Like all the players at United he wants to improve and be good enough to be first choice. Surely trying to overtake Evra as first choice left-back is far more ambitious than dropping down the league to nail a first team place. I also think people undervalue players capable of playing in a multitude of positions, something O'Shea is more than capable of.

This argument's fine if you want to apply it to young players of high enough ability that they can reasonably expect to force their way into the first team sometime soon, like Fabio and Rafael, but for O'shea that's hardly the case. As everyone's been saying above, he only gets in the first team through injuries. And the only way he could ever overtake Evra otherwise would be if Evra suffered a monumental loss of form, which is hardly worth banking on, and anyway even if he did Fergie being a smart enough manager would simply by another left back. But realistically for a player like O'shea to genuinely think he stands any chance of winning first team place in a team that makes the case to be the best in the world and ahead of the likes of Evra and even Rafael isn't ambitious, it's delusional. But O'shea isn't delusional, he's just comfortable.

[a big boy]

As for learning and improving surely as a player you'll learn more by being around fantastic players day in day out than being a "star" starting player at a lower club, never having his job being threatened, thats as much a sign of an unabitious comfort player in my eyes as what A Big Boy is accusing Foster of, at least he's waiting for the TOP job, not for a nobody team.

Well, as a young player it's important to develop your technique with the best possible coaching staff and, yeah, probably to absorb the mentality and anything else you can from those around you at the top of their game. But isn't the reason players are sent out on loan - because after a certain age you've learnt most of the technical side, and the main thing that's going to improve your game is playing week in week out? Evans is a player that's proving he's got the potential to play for a team like United, but do you think he'd still be the same player if the last three seasons he'd spent out on loan playing week in week out and getting valuable experience if he'd stayed at United, sat on the bench and maybe played a few games Rio was injured?

[fatbob]

You've answered your own question here. Capello's concern is that Foster become the best player he can. Surely as a professional Foster's should be the same?

No, Cappello's concern is to have more choices for goalkeeper at the World Cup.

Foster's concern is his whole career, hes at the top now, pretty much guarenteed to take over as number one within the year, why would he want to take two steps backward in order to possibly gain in the short term? Hes only going to have to work his way back up to this level (pressumedly where he wants to be).

If he misses out on one tournament because of securing his long term career prospects then that is of course the right thing to do.

---------------------

And with O'Shea, isn't it enough to be happy and settled in your job where you are, content that you are probably never going to peak any further, happy to be wanted and needed for being versatile rather than specialised? Rather than lazy and un-ambitious, i'd say he is realistic and smart. Shit, i'd be happy enough to be at the club I wanted to be at, being paid to only work half the time.

[a big boy]

No, Cappello's concern is to have more choices for goalkeeper at the World Cup.

Foster's concern is his whole career, hes at the top now, pretty much guarenteed to take over as number one within the year, why would he want to take two steps backward in order to possibly gain in the short term? Hes only going to have to work his way back up to this level (pressumedly where he wants to be).

If he misses out on one tournament because of securing his long term career prospects then that is of course the right thing to do.

---------------------

And with O'Shea, isn't it enough to be happy and settled in your job where you are, content that you are probably never going to peak any further, happy to be wanted and needed for being versatile rather than specialised? Rather than lazy and un-ambitious, i'd say he is realistic and smart. Shit, i'd be happy enough to be at the club I wanted to be at, being paid to only work half the time.

Ben Foster's 26, he's been at the club for four years now and has made 8 first team appearances, 5 of them in cup games (http://www.stretfordend.co.uk/playermenu/foster.html ). He's been out on loan a couple of times and been unlucky with injuries, so it's maybe not as bad as that looks, but for a player who's for my money easily the most talented Englishman in his position, who's approaching the peak of his career he's basically achieved nothing. Of course, break in to the Utd team and all that changes virtually overnight in footballing terms. But he's hardly guaranteed, is he? VDS could easily come back from a long summer with no international tournaments rejuvenated for next year, and even if his current wobble does become something a little more permanent, what's to stop. Yeah, Fergie might have promised Foster a run in the team, even in good faith, but this is football, and why shouldn't he pick up someone like, say, the more experienced Diego Lopez* from Villarreal if he looks more likely to win you the league?

And that's the cruel irony of players who knuckle down at top clubs waiting for their break a little too long. After a while (in football manager terms ) their rep's going to fall way below that of the clubs and then maybe when that opportunity does come up the boss feels more comfortable turning to the transfer window than the player who's been trying to impress him the last four years.

And everything you say about O'Shea pretty much acknowledges that he's comfortable. I'm not saying I dislike him personally, this isn't 'John O'Shea hate', just saying that as a pro who should be looking to become the player possible and for all his hard work to actually mean much to the fans who pay his wages he's unambitious. I mean, yeah, I'd be happy to quit working for the NHS to be in his position, but then I'd also be happy playing for the football team that surrendered a huge lead to finish second in the Premiership, and was only slightly over-awed by the Champions of Portugal before going out to them in the Quarter Finals of the greatest club tournament in world sport. Thing is, if I had that attitude, like O'Shea, I'd have no place being anywhere near the starting XI of that team.

*Diego Lopez, incidentally, was at Real Madrid failing to usurp Casillas until Villarreal brought him in to replace Pepe Reina (Reina having himself failed to win a place at Barca) and since then he's been an absolute revelation. Fine history of keepers dropping down a level to boost their careers in the country that right now is producing the world's best.

[fatbob]

Yeah, all good points. I guess my desire to see Foster becoming a great goalkeeper at United doesn't want to think of the possability of him becoming great eleswhere.

I seriously think its worth waiting another year though, the examples you gave of goalkeepers leaving due to failing to break past the current #1 goalkeepers are slightly different situations to Foster's as VDS is almost 40 and probably will retire at the end of next season. Neither Victor Valdes or Casillas are anywhere near that age, so the goalkeepers coming in behind them couldn't hope to 'inherit' the gloves any time soon so to speak.

Reguarding the guarentee of getting the job, of course there is no guarentee, but Fergie himself has consistantly said that he wants it to be Foster, those have been overtly his plans for the last 3 years or so. It depends on Foster realy, I think it's probably something they've talked about a lot, and Fergie obviously has faith that he can step up when needed. If he can't, then get someone eles in and Foster can try somewhere else.

[FATEone]

Why?

Because he told Macheda to kiss the camera. What exactly was he trying to achieve by that?

[FATEone]

I'm not bothered if we don't beat Porto this year anyway. No-one's gonna beat Barca. Currently 4-0 against Bayern at half time!

we'll see.

[phresh]

Stuff....

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this. You're basically saying, the way I read it anyway, that any player who is past the 'young potential' point of their career (say 25) and not first choice is unambitious and should look elsewhere? Isn't this pretty much what has happened at Arsenal (due to the manager rather than players mind) and look what it's done.....

[FATEone]

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this. You're basically saying, the way I read it anyway, that any player who is past the 'young potential' point of their career (say 25) and not first choice is unambitious and should look elsewhere? Isn't this pretty much what has happened at Arsenal (due to the manager rather than players mind) and look what it's done.....

Well yeah, that's what he seems to be saying to a degree, and it makes sense. Goalkeepers tend to have a longer prime though, and at a slightly later age. I understand why Foster has stayed and done his loan spells, and think he'll be first choice next year, if he isn't though I would be very surprised if he didn't try to move on to another club.

[a big boy]

Foster's a slightly different case because of VDS's age, but then again he's starting to push it himself. And, yeah, you can say he's a keeper so he'll probably have a long career anyway... Well, unfortunately maybe not given his injury record. And even so, if he was ambitious surely he'd use that to his advantage to get experience playing further down the table, safe in the knowledge that if he proves himself good enough a big four club will come in for him eventually with years left to play, and if he doesn't he was never going to make it at Utd anyway.

Thing is, If VDS starts strong next season after resting his ageing frame all summer, Foster's not going to just take his place, and then he's gotta sit out til the season after to start his career proper when he'll be pushing 28 and immediately after a World Cup he should have played in. He's gambling years of his career waiting on VDS to jump the shark and on the promise that when he finally does and push comes to shove, Fergie doesn't decide he'd rather not risk a season (and maybe by then his last) on someone whose only experience playing first team football was getting relegated with Watford three years ago? After all, if he's behind a patently past his peak VDS now and all he's gonna do is stagnate in the mean time, whose to say Fergie rates him that highly after all? Talk is cheap, and while we talking incentives for Capello wondering whether Foster should move on, it's just as much in Fergie's interest to keep his 2nd best keeper sitting on the bench for all eventualities.

As for Arsenal, I don't remember many of their players leaving after failing to make the grade only to prove themselves elsewhere. And even they did, it's completely missing the point. We're talking about what a player should do for their career. An ambitious player doesn't sit on the bench because it's in his club's interests to have a reliable back up. An ambitious manager might want them to (and it's to his credit that Fergie's got a good history of holding onto solid, bit-part players) does what's best for their career. But if you wanna look at Arsenal, we all called him a twat at the time but Diarra knew his own ability and was tired of not getting opportunities at Chelsea so moved to Arsenal, failed to find them there as Flamini unexpectedly came to the fore, wasn't afraid of moving to a relatively obscure club like Portsmouth just so he could play a bit, and after just half a season of first team football got a move to Real Madrid where he's now one of the first names on the team sheet and established himself a place in the French team. You don't have to be as ruthless and disloyal as that of course - Diarra would probably have the same status at Arsneal now minus the rep if he'd hung on a bit longer - but he's a come a long way since playing second fiddle to Paulo Ferreira a couple of years ago.