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The old Man Utd Thread

ThePixelbarks

By ThePixelbarks
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Loik V credern

Loik V credern

Posted
Posted

I don't understand the happiness at securing a player for a vast amount when the whole story with Pogba and United represents the worst of modern football. The total lack of long term thinking from Fergsuon, total disregard for a young player and his talent, his vampiric agent desperate for a move that benefits him, the embarrassing nature of wanting him back because he's proved his talent elsewhere. I guess being £100m kind of makes you a bit more special than another £30m player, so he can be more sure of his place in the team, but given that even Real Madrid fans were getting on Bale's back after his great impactful first season with rumours he might be sold, there's no guarantee of anything. United had Nick Powell, Rowan Morrison, have Herrera, Mata, Januzaj is probably broken beyond repair now, bursting into the side with an awareness and brilliance on the ball beyond his years, probably adjusting his ambitions based on not being given a chance and then being loaned out to an already impressive functioning team where they have no reason to play him, nothing invested in him so why would they when they're winning already ? Same goes for Sevilla and Deulofeu's loan. I think it just kills them, people seem flippant about how precarious young talent's chances are. Josh McEachran came into the Chelsea side at 17, incredibly good feet, so at ease, basically a young Iniesta in style, the way he caresses the ball, sees a pass. Extremely highly thought of by Chelsea, future England intentional. On loan to Middlesbrough in that ultra combative league, loaned out elsewhere, big injuries, always dreamed of playing for Chelsea. Could still be there now. Maybe he doesn't have the fight, maybe players are fragile, maybe the conditions need to be absolutely perfect. Maybe an Iniesta wouldn't flourish in the Championship if he was English instead of Spanish being coached by Guardiola who said to a young Xavi when watching Iniesta; 'you'll end me, he'll end us both'. No idea what Mikel brought to Chelsea that McEachran didn't. Was reading about the Hansen 'can't win anything with kids comment' in the 1995/1996 season, forgot that the young players in it were just 20/21/22 Gary Neville, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt.

 

I get the 'it's not my money who cares', but it's not about the amount, it's the principle, it's about the priorities of a club. It's about identity, taking players who've been successful elsewhere is like trying to import a bit of the team's they played for's quality and style, but finding talents who have not yet peaked and getting the best out of them has more value. I didn't want Van Persie for that reason, he's Arsenal's, I associate him with that club, his style is that club. I just can't follow United. They don't represent anything I want from a club.

 

This just creates extra pressure, on him (if it's true), and the club itself. The high ticket prices coupled with big signings mean high expectations, and anger when they're not met. It's all a horrible cycle that could be alleviated with a different approach.

 

edit: So apparently United must pay Pogba's agent's fee of £18m. People are fine with that?

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5R7

5R7

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Posted
47 minutes ago, d ebolenk said:

 The total lack of long term thinking from Fergsuon, total disregard for a young player and his talent, his vampiric agent desperate for a move that benefits him, the embarrassing nature of wanting him back because he's proved his talent elsewhere.

tbf, anyone that acutally saw him play when he was at utd, could have told you he was going to be brilliant (like pereira, although hwe looks like he might get a chance!)...apart from fergie it seemed...go back and look at the under 21 stuff, he was just so much better tjhan anyone, couldnt understand it for the life of me why fergie wouldnt give him a chance!

 

plus point, if we have got him ,technically i think he classes as home grow still lol

 

although, we absolutly could have got two world class players for £100 mill...which is beyond ridiculous!

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Liamness

Liamness

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55 minutes ago, 5R7 said:

tbf, anyone that acutally saw him play when he was at utd, could have told you he was going to be brilliant

 

Nah. You could say he was talented for sure but his development into a world class attacking midfielder at Juventus has been unexpected to say the least. It is a little embarrassing that we were not able to spot and nuture his talent, and now look like we're about to pay a world record fee for him. Making a big inquest now into how that happened is a bit pointless though, given that everyone involved in coaching the first team and reserves back then has now gone.

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feltmonkey

feltmonkey

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Posted

People are looking at the Pogba saga quite negatively here.  The reason he left was that he felt he wasn't getting enough first-team chances, and while the club did offer him a new contract, they weren't able to guarantee him first team games.  He left to try his luck elsewhere, and has succeeded.  You can't criticise the player for doing that.  It's not as if United let him go because they didn't rate him, and it's not as if Pogba left for cynical reasons either - he wanted to play football and prove himself.  Fair play to him for doing just that, and maintaining enough of an affection for the club he started his career at to apparently consider coming back.  

 

You can't really criticise the club for their actions at the time either, really.  They did try to keep him, but of course United couldn't guarantee a raw eighteen-year-old first team matches. The only criticism that really sticks is that the bizarre policy surrounding the center of the midfield at the time was probably the reason Pogba came to the conclusion that he needed to move.  We were playing O'Shea, Fabio, all sorts in midfield, and we bought Scholes out of retirement to play there as well, something Pogba has sited as a reason he believed he wasn't going to get a chance to establish himself.  That was silly on United's part in hindsight, but it wasn't necessarily the right move to throw Pogba in there either.  He was talented, but as Liamness has said, it was far from a foregone conclusion that he would turn into a world star.  He sometimes looked awkward and gangly, a touch uncoordinated even.  He was still very highly rated by the club, but not enough to throw him in, sink or swim.  

 

He might not have flourished as he has if he had been made a fixture of the United midfield at the time, anyway.  The development of a player from promise to quality is such a precarious thing, he might have lost confidence, or suffered an injury, or just faded away.  The move to Juventus has been the making of him.  As frustrating as it may be to look at him playing fantastic stuff for Juve, and reading reports of a £100m pricetag to buy him back, we shouldn't assume that if he hadn't left we would now have the Paul Pogba that we are trying to sign at the moment.  If that particular route is the one he needed to become a world-class player for United in the end, £100m pricetag and all, I'm okay with it.

 

 

Also, d ebolenk, I don't think Rowan Morrison was ever a United prospect was he?  Rowan Morrison from the forum?  He's been rambling in an amusing fashion about allotments today, something I can't really see Ravel Morrison doing. :D 

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Trigg

Trigg

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Liamness said:

 

Nah. You could say he was talented for sure but his development into a world class attacking midfielder at Juventus has been unexpected to say the least. It is a little embarrassing that we were not able to spot and nuture his talent, and now look like we're about to pay a world record fee for him. Making a big inquest now into how that happened is a bit pointless though, given that everyone involved in coaching the first team and reserves back then has now gone.

 

I'm not at all surprised at the player he's become. He always stood out as someone who would go to be a very good footballer. Arguments to be had that if might not have developed as well at United due to the amount of football he's had at Juventus, even from a young age. Played around 30 times in his first season there for example.

 

His departure from United was unfortunate. A combination of not wanting assurances on football and allegedly asking for a larger contract than what we were prepared to give him at that age and point in his career played a factor I'm sure. Didn't Fergie complain about his agent from memory?

 

Either way, I have no qualms about him rejoining. Even if it is for £100m. Just hope he can cope with the pressure should it happen.

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Trigg

Trigg

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, d ebolenk said:

I don't understand the happiness at securing a player for a vast amount when the whole story with Pogba and United represents the worst of modern football. The total lack of long term thinking from Fergsuon, total disregard for a young player and his talent, his vampiric agent desperate for a move that benefits him, the embarrassing nature of wanting him back because he's proved his talent elsewhere. I guess being £100m kind of makes you a bit more special than another £30m player, so he can be more sure of his place in the team, but given that even Real Madrid fans were getting on Bale's back after his great impactful first season with rumours he might be sold, there's no guarantee of anything. United had Nick Powell, Rowan Morrison, have Herrera, Mata, Januzaj is probably broken beyond repair now, bursting into the side with an awareness and brilliance on the ball beyond his years, probably adjusting his ambitions based on not being given a chance and then being loaned out to an already impressive functioning team where they have no reason to play him, nothing invested in him so why would they when they're winning already ? Same goes for Sevilla and Deulofeu's loan. I think it just kills them, people seem flippant about how precarious young talent's chances are. Josh McEachran came into the Chelsea side at 17, incredibly good feet, so at ease, basically a young Iniesta in style, the way he caresses the ball, sees a pass. Extremely highly thought of by Chelsea, future England intentional. On loan to Middlesbrough in that ultra combative league, loaned out elsewhere, big injuries, always dreamed of playing for Chelsea. Could still be there now. Maybe he doesn't have the fight, maybe players are fragile, maybe the conditions need to be absolutely perfect. Maybe an Iniesta wouldn't flourish in the Championship if he was English instead of Spanish being coached by Guardiola who said to a young Xavi when watching Iniesta; 'you'll end me, he'll end us both'. No idea what Mikel brought to Chelsea that McEachran didn't. Was reading about the Hansen 'can't win anything with kids comment' in the 1995/1996 season, forgot that the young players in it were just 20/21/22 Gary Neville, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Butt.

 

I get the 'it's not my money who cares', but it's not about the amount, it's the principle, it's about the priorities of a club. It's about identity, taking players who've been successful elsewhere is like trying to import a bit of the team's they played for's quality and style, but finding talents who have not yet peaked and getting the best out of them has more value. I didn't want Van Persie for that reason, he's Arsenal's, I associate him with that club, his style is that club. I just can't follow United. They don't represent anything I want from a club.

 

This just creates extra pressure, on him (if it's true), and the club itself. The high ticket prices coupled with big signings mean high expectations, and anger when they're not met. It's all a horrible cycle that could be alleviated with a different approach.

 

edit: So apparently United must pay Pogba's agent's fee of £18m. People are fine with that?

 

United have always signed players though? It's only going to get more difficult for younger players to burst onto the scene as time goes on I feel. Lots of pressure and money involved now but if you're good enough, and mentally strong you take you chance when you get it.

 

Rashford being a prime example. A player I think we relied on far too much last season which is why the Zlatan signing made so much sense. Fosu Mensah too, another who's still around the first team at the moment.

 

So its still there and possible, but its always been with quality, more experienced players. 

 

I saw on Twitter yesterday that as a percentage of turnover. The Pogba fee aligns with the signings of, Veron (being the highest), Rio, Di Maria etc. Just so happens now that there's so much money around the fee's have been inflated to go along with the bucket loads of money teams have.

 

Get used to seeing higher transfer fees I guess is what I'm saying.

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Majora

Majora

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11 hours ago, feltmonkey said:

 

You can't really criticise the club for their actions at the time either, really.  They did try to keep him, but of course United couldn't guarantee a raw eighteen-year-old first team matches. The only criticism that really sticks is that the bizarre policy surrounding the center of the midfield at the time was probably the reason Pogba came to the conclusion that he needed to move.  We were playing O'Shea, Fabio, all sorts in midfield, and we bought Scholes out of retirement to play there as well, something Pogba has sited as a reason he believed he wasn't going to get a chance to establish himself.  That was silly on United's part in hindsight, but it wasn't necessarily the right move to throw Pogba in there either.  He was talented, but as Liamness has said, it was far from a foregone conclusion that he would turn into a world star.  He sometimes looked awkward and gangly, a touch uncoordinated even.  He was still very highly rated by the club, but not enough to throw him in, sink or swim.  

 

I'm not sure that I can wholeheartedly agree with this. I vividly remember people in this very thread, even before Pogba started itching for a move away from Old Trafford, saying that Pogba was a special player and was likely to become a fixture in our midfield for years to come.

 

It wasn't a certainty that he would become a world class 100 million euro value player, but it was clear that he was the best youth player to come through in years. I saw Fergie give very clearly mediocre youth team players better shots at establishing themselves in the team than he ever gave Pogba. When we were in the midst of an injury crisis, repeatedly overlooking a very promising player in favour of playing absurd combinations of unsuitable players in midfield can't be seen as anything other than a big error on Fergie's part, and one that was shockingly short sighted given that many of the players he tried to play there were either old, on their way out (Park) or simply not even midfielders at all.

 

Anyway if we do get Pogba then great, obviously. I don't think he's worth the pricetag but he will undoubtedly improve the team.

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Trigg

Trigg

Posted
Posted

Well after watching Dortmund game can we get LVG back? 

 

I'm kidding, but it was bad at times. Although you could see we were leggy and didn't really get near Dortmund who's had 5 games already somehow!?

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