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Justice League


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3 hours ago, Nick R said:

This review, by The Escapist's Darren Mooney, is one of the only serious reviews of the film I've seen so far on a Letterboxd. Most of the rest seem to be either meme reviews, or extreme 1 or 5 star ratings by Snyder haters or fans:

 

https://boxd.it/1IWAgf

 

 

Just to save anyone else wasting their time, this brief review is written by someone who thinks Snyder films have themes (his emphasis) and who believes that Man of Steel and BvS were "much needed deconstructions". It certainly sounds like it's written by a Snyder fan, or at least someone dumb enough to be one.

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2 hours ago, Captain Novaforce said:

 

 

:lol:


This could be the worst film ever and there will still be a ‘fan campaign’ for #releasethesyndersequal which is needed to transform the film into a masterpiece or some such.

 

Its coming. These people won’t go away.

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One interesting constant in the comments so far is a sense that all this extra stuff is essential to make the movie work - that without the four hour bulk you get with all the backstories and so on, you wind up with, well, the theatrical Justice League movie. Which is logical (Marvel took about 10 hours of backstory to get to Avengers Assemble) but also a serious fault in a movie that was meant to be shown in theatres.

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10 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

One interesting constant in the comments so far is a sense that all this extra stuff is essential to make the movie work - that without the four hour bulk you get with all the backstories and so on, you wind up with, well, the theatrical Justice League movie. Which is logical (Marvel took about 10 hours of backstory to get to Avengers Assemble) but also a serious fault in a movie that was meant to be shown in theatres.

But this is all coming from people that liked Batman vs Superman. A film that spoon fed teeth grindingly dull exposition for two and a half hours before the lead characters realised their Mums had the same name and it ended. It seems the Snyder fans (Sny-hards?) want every little thing explained in drawn out detail with serious faces or it's bad/for kids.

Avengers is definitely fun because we've had all the build up but it also works on its own merits. Cap is the honourable one, Tony's the smartass, Hawkeye's there, you get the characters and the movie's fun without knowing about Thor's hammers origins etc. I can't say I'm expecting the same for Justice League but I guess we'll see on Wednesday.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Broker said:

 

Just to save anyone else wasting their time, this brief review is written by someone who thinks Snyder films have themes (his emphasis) and who believes that Man of Steel and BvS were "much needed deconstructions". It certainly sounds like it's written by a Snyder fan, or at least someone dumb enough to be one.


I don’t think it’s wrong to say they have themes or were deconstructions. That the thematic lens of those deconstructions was sophomoric and cynical is a separate issue but you can’t say the movie wasn’t howling it in your face.

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Yes, but the scenes being added in could I'm sure be at the expense of other less important scenes being removed if it was going to be a theatrical release. So hypothetically the wrong scenes were written, shot or edited, rather than having enough of them.

 

Of course for home release, the fan boys could not possibly countenance a changed movie with a similar running time to theatrical, just: more, more, more!!

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1 minute ago, BitterToad said:

But this is all coming from people that liked Batman vs Superman. A film that spoon fed exposition for two and a half hours before the lead characters realised their Mums had the same name and it ended. It seems the Snyder fans (Sny-hards?) want every little thing explained in drawn out detail with serious faces or it's bad/for kids.

Avengers is definitely fun because we've had all the build up but it also works on its own merits. Cap is the honourable one, Tony's the smartass, Hawkeye's there, you get the characters and the movie's fun without knowing about Thor's hammers origins etc. I can't say I'm expecting the same for Justice League but I guess we'll see on Wednesday.

 

 


Right, obviously there are ways of conveying who characters are that don’t take three arse-numbing hours.

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1 minute ago, hub2 said:

Yes, but the scenes being added in could I'm sure be at the expense of other less important scenes being removed if it was going to be a theatrical release. So hypothetically the wrong scenes were written, shot or edited, rather than having enough of them.

 

Of course for home release, the fan boys could not possibly countenance a changes move, just: more, more, more!!


Having subjected myself to the theatrical cut, I have to say there’s not much you can remove there and still have it function: it’s a whistle-stop tour as it is. They really needed to say “no” a few more times when they were coming up with the outline.

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2 hours ago, Broker said:

 

Just to save anyone else wasting their time, this brief review is written by someone who thinks Snyder films have themes (his emphasis) and who believes that Man of Steel and BvS were "much needed deconstructions". It certainly sounds like it's written by a Snyder fan, or at least someone dumb enough to be one.

 

Not really, he's pretty open about the flaws of all the Snyder films I've seen him write about. He's just one of those critics that values flawed ambition over safe competence, and he's very skeptical of things that try to evoke a sense of nostalgia in the audience:

 

https://them0vieblog.com/2017/11/13/my-world-doesnt-exist-anymore-man-of-steel-batman-vs-superman-and-the-rejection-of-nostalgia/

 

Man of Steel: https://boxd.it/1Izyxd (yeah, that's me with the only reply!)

 

Watchmen: https://boxd.it/QsmCZ

 

 

I like his writing, he's become one of my favourite online critics over the last few years. I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I'm particularly fond of his theory that you can read each Mission: Impossible movie as a metaphor for a different aspect of filmmaking!

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33 minutes ago, Purin said:

Zack Snyder's a Halo fan?

 

image.png.e15fa95f0a45fd8508c2579560e6f812.png


For some reason when you do a Google image search for “Ra’s al gul symbol” it’s one of the first results, and Google Images is a good enough production designer for Visionary Director Zack Snyder.

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48 minutes ago, Nick R said:

 

Not really, he's pretty open about the flaws of all the Snyder films I've seen him write about. He's just one of those critics that values flawed ambition over safe competence, and he's very skeptical of things that try to evoke a sense of nostalgia in the audience:

 

https://them0vieblog.com/2017/11/13/my-world-doesnt-exist-anymore-man-of-steel-batman-vs-superman-and-the-rejection-of-nostalgia/

 

Man of Steel: https://boxd.it/1Izyxd (yeah, that's me with the only reply!)

 

Watchmen: https://boxd.it/QsmCZ

 

 

I like his writing, he's become one of my favourite online critics over the last few years. I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I'm particularly fond of his theory that you can read each Mission: Impossible movie as a metaphor for a different aspect of filmmaking!


I think his central thesis in that first piece is mistaken - the main criticisms levelled at BvS and MoS weren’t that they were iconoclastic but that they were atrociously made on every creative metric, from plot structure and dialogue to character design and even CGI.*
 

That aside there is a lot of his reading of all of the films he describes there that simply doesn’t match up to what’s on screen. Age of Ultron’s urban destruction is “playful and “consequence-free”? It was one of the first films (and clumsiest) to react to the criticism of Zod and Superman’s consequence-free brawl in Man of Steel, by making a big deal of showing the civilian fallout of a superhero fight. (Yes BvS shows us 9/11 imagery - the consequences of a doomsday weapon that is being dealt with by Lois Lane and friends in a separate plot line, while Superman and Zod throw each other and heat rays through conspicuously empty skyscrapers.) 

 

I think he’s making a commendable effort to read those films as responding to the superhero genre in some nuanced way, but to be frank they were reactionary in the most superficial senses imaginable: this Batman blows people up, this Superman doesn’t want to help, etc. It’s true that the reactionary component of the movies hasn’t been well explored too deeply because of the foundational failures in the pictures themselves, but I don’t think there’s much there there.
 

* I knew I was in for a real sloppy film with MoS when they did Jor-El’s monologue over the bas-relief showing Krypton’s history, and at 24 frames per second, panning across the image at the speed they’d chosen, it was just barely illegible. At no point in the entire process of putting together that imagery, rendering it out, editing it and putting it to film did anyone care that the result was a hair’s breadth on the wrong side of being comprehensible to the viewer. It must have been good on the page.

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Hmm, after reading his MoS review I’d perhaps suggest that what he’s reading as Snyder trying to do, and not quite achieving, is actually stuff the writer’s room on the movies is setting up, and Snyder is pushing back on by playing the superheroes as uncritically heroic.

 

What’s the consequence of Pa Kent telling him he shouldn’t help people? Well, it’s played off as his heroic burden to bear, but then everyone gets helped anyway.

 

What’s the consequence of Superman smashing up that trucker’s livelihood for being rude? Nothing - it’s played off as just deserts.

 

What’s the consequence of his skyscraper-smashing brawl with Zod? He stops the doomsday machine - the thing actually shown killing people in skyscrapers - and saves the day.

 

What’s the consequence of Superman murdering Zod with his bare hands? Well, he turns up beaming in front of the US military and tells them not to get in his way, so I’m guessing he got over his first kill pretty quick.

 

For all his thematic cynicism I think Snyder may not actually have an ironic bone in his body. Maybe that’s what his iconoclastic adaptations of Watchmen, and Superman, and Batman needed: a demonstrable awareness that there was some contrast between the characters’ actions and our expectations.

 

Edit - Actually, we know that Snyder doesn’t view these versions of the characters as ironic - we know from his comments that they’re the versions of the characters that make the most sense to him.

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2 hours ago, hub2 said:

Yes, but the scenes being added in could I'm sure be at the expense of other less important scenes being removed if it was going to be a theatrical release. So hypothetically the wrong scenes were written, shot or edited, rather than having enough of them.

 

Of course for home release, the fan boys could not possibly countenance a changed movie with a similar running time to theatrical, just: more, more, more!!

 

https://www.polygon.com/reviews/22328263/zack-snyder-justice-league-review-snyder-cut

 

From the linked review I'm not sure they could be - to get a cohesive narrative, and set up film two, you end up adding a load of stuff. But if you're not sure you want a film two, and you want to fit it into a theatrical running time - even assuming you could fix the editing issues that are still there - then god knows what you'd do: replace Darkseid with Steppenwolf in a few CGI scenes and cut as many story arcs out as you could, and you still end up with over 2 hours.

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https://film.avclub.com/the-snyder-cut-is-a-much-longer-justice-league-but-not-1846466321

 

The AV Club- The Snyder Cut is a much longer Justice League, but not a better one
 

Quite a good read I thought (having not seen the film obv)

 

"It takes two whole hours, the entire length of the previous Justice League, to even get seafaring Aquaman (Jason Momoa), super-fast The Flash (Ezra Miller), and mechanical Cyborg (Ray Fisher) into the same room together"

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Reminder: One of the few bits of Snyder footage (it was in the pre-Whedon trailers) that made the theatrical cut was tireless guardian of the world's oceans Aquaman downing whisky straight from the bottle (because he's a grizzled badass who's 2extreme4U) then throwing his trash in the sea.

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22 minutes ago, Harsin said:

(because he's a grizzled badass who's 2extreme4U) then throwing his trash in the sea.


Wait... wasn’t one of the plot threads in Aquaman the peoplefish of Atlantis being angry about sea pollution? Although I did fall asleep twice so may have dreamt that part.

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Yeah, they start throwing landlubbers shit back onto land. Maybe we’ll get super slow motion of the very same bottle getting thrown back. It’s like poetry, it rhymes. 

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