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I count Man of Steel as the worst movie I’ve ever seen, so definitely approaching this from different angles. I just don’t understand why you would want to direct a Superman movie if you don’t like Superman. Like why not just do a new super hero? Why change a symbol of kindness and hope into a symbol of selfish privilege? Usually reboots of characters with a big fan base will reimagine the core features of the character for a different or modern audience. I get that Snyder is a bitter, rich white dude who wants to be very important, but I don’t think Superman is a good fit for that type of character at all.

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Grimdark?

 

I guess there's always that requirement to harm Superman's character in order to make him relatable and stop him from being omnipotent.  

 

I think the thing that set MoS apart from the Marvel films of the time for me was that he was pushed to the breaking point rather than the Marvel response of Age of Ulton, where they're beating the big bad and making the point of saving everyone while doing it.  He was a fledgling hero learning his powers (basically not superman yet) and could only focus on beating Zod.  I guess you kind of have to see MoS like that to see Batman's response in BvS as well.  

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I dunno, I feel like MoS showed (not yet) Superman being overwhelmed.  It gave more of a sense of peril than the Marvel films of the time.  That's what made me enjoy Infinity War more than the other recent Marvel films, the fact that people were dying and there was a real cost to the victories that they had gained (which was just wiped out by Endgame)

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21 minutes ago, Jimmyzilla said:

He's been told his whole life to hide and keep his powers secret.  A lot of the film is him overcoming that and it even carries over to BvS with Costner's cameo.

 

(Disclaimer: I haven't seen MoS, and that's the first time I've watched that bit.)

 

I understand that you're telling us that this is the story and so it makes sense that it's the story. It's just a fair criticism that Superman doesn't really fit that story. There's no way Clark Kent would let someone die when he didn't have to in any other interpretation of the character. It's inherent to his whole setup. There's certainly no way that he'd just stand there and watch his Dad die, when he'd barely have to lift a finger to save him.

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1 minute ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

(Disclaimer: I haven't seen MoS, and that's the first time I've watched that bit.)

 

I understand that you're telling us that this is the story and so it makes sense that it's the story. It's just a fair criticism that Superman doesn't really fit that story. There's no way Clark Kent would let someone die when he didn't have to in any other interpretation of the character. It's inherent to his whole setup.

It's kinda like how Synder used Jimmy Olsen for the name of an undercover CIA agent as a photographer in Lois Lane's entourage, it's just a nod 

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21 hours ago, Gambit said:

 

Apparently he was really unprofessional on set.

 

Probably the worst thing is the scene where The Flash accidentally falls on top of Wonder Woman before quickly jumping off. Gal Gadot didn't want to do it and instead of listening to one of the stars he thought fuck it and just filmed it with a stunt double. It's really clear when you watch because you never see her face.

 

Reminds me that in Age of Ultron he decided that Bruce needed to fall face first in to Natasha's cleavage during an action scene for bants.

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Again though, if you’re not interested in any aspect of the existing characters beyond their names why sign up to direct a superman movie? Why not just make an original movie? 

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2 minutes ago, Broker said:

Again though, if you’re not interested in any aspect of the existing characters beyond their names why sign up to direct a superman movie? Why not just make an original movie? 

Haha I'm like that with a lot of reboots but I dunno, I liked where Synder took things, especially in an MCU dominated world

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But they’ve purposefully sold it to fans of superman who went in expecting a superman film, not Zak Snyder presents white privilege man. I’m as bored of the MCU as anyone, but at least Marvel seem to like their characters. Snyder seems to think superman is lame, but as replaced him with fragile incel man, who is probably the most unlikable character I’ve ever encountered.

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12 minutes ago, Broker said:

But they’ve purposefully sold it to fans of superman who went in expecting a superman film, not Zak Snyder presents white privilege man. I’m as bored of the MCU as anyone, but at least Marvel seem to like their characters. Snyder seems to think superman is lame, but as replaced him with fragile incel man, who is probably the most unlikable character I’ve ever encountered.

It was an origin story, that kinda stuff has to be earnt. 

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34 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

(Disclaimer: I haven't seen MoS, and that's the first time I've watched that bit.)

 

I understand that you're telling us that this is the story and so it makes sense that it's the story. It's just a fair criticism that Superman doesn't really fit that story. There's no way Clark Kent would let someone die when he didn't have to in any other interpretation of the character. It's inherent to his whole setup. There's certainly no way that he'd just stand there and watch his Dad die, when he'd barely have to lift a finger to save him.

 

Clark's dad really should have let him go save the dog.

 

 

Even within the context of the story the character motivation does make sense - just before this scene Clark disagrees with his father that he shouldn't help people.

 

So when the tornado hits we have a character with the means and motivation to save his father's life but refusing to do so even though just moments before he said "I should help people" and hadn't been convinced otherwise.

 

*if* the scene before had him agreeing that "not helping" was the right course (for whatever reason) but then having to commit to this principle at the cost of some one he loved, and using that lost as a motivation to change, that would make more sense.

 

Currently, Clark's attitude to his abilities is the same before AND after he lets his dad die...making the death pointless and unnecessary.

 

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7 minutes ago, Jimmyzilla said:

It was an origin story, that kinda stuff has to be earnt. 


I don’t understand what you mean by this at all. Superman is already very powerful, he doesn’t need to earn anything, that’s literally the whole point of the character. It’s not like there’s not a perfectly good grim dark hero in the D.C. pantheon who has all the features Snyder hamfistedly tried to give to Superman. If you want a hero who went through tragedy he was powerless to stop and as such ended up with a morally grey outlook on the world that’s Batman, and it makes sense for Batman to be like that because he wasn’t born with infinite power. Also then you don’t need to have tragic things that he could have stopped happen to him for literally no reason to justify his personality. The Marvel formula is tired, but I don’t think the answer is allowing a complete idiot to write movies about characters he doesn’t understand or like. 

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Just now, Broker said:


I don’t understand what you mean by this at all. Superman is already very powerful, he doesn’t need to earn anything, that’s literally the whole point of the character. It’s not like there’s not a perfectly good grim dark hero in the D.C. pantheon who has all the features Snyder hamfistedly tried to give to Superman. If you want a hero who went through tragedy he was powerless to stop and as such ended up with a morally grey outlook on the world that’s Batman, and it makes sense for Batman to be like that because he wasn’t born with infinite power. Also then you don’t need to have tragic things that he could have stopped happen to him for literally no reason to justify his personality. The Marvel formula is tired, but I don’t think the answer is allowing a complete idiot to write movies about characters he doesn’t understand or like. 

A big part of the film is him learning his powers though?

 

It's not like he knows what he can do from the start (wouldn't that be more like that James Gunn film that I still haven't seen?)

 

Film Pa Kent was desperate to hide his powers so he could live as a normal person.

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1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

 

Reminds me that in Age of Ultron he decided that Bruce needed to fall face first in to Natasha's cleavage during an action scene for bants.

 

I was just about to post that. Same sort of thing.

 

I'm curious to Gadot's refusal though. Presumably there must be some things which require the actor/actress' consent and cannot be enforced. Would it make a difference if it was in the original script vs being added in after the fact? And in terms of objectification where does Gadot draw the line?

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1 hour ago, Jimmyzilla said:

A big part of the film is him learning his powers though?

 

It's not like he knows what he can do from the start (wouldn't that be more like that James Gunn film that I still haven't seen?)

 

Film Pa Kent was desperate to hide his powers so he could live as a normal person.


I mean, there’s literally nothing stopping Clark from jogging over at a normal speed and then dashing his dad to safety once people can’t see. Plus that’s not the lesson Clark learns in the movie, he ends up wearing the suit because space dad told him to. I also don’t remember him learning to use his powers. He’s got full on bus dragging powers in the flashbacks. 
 

I think you’re reading stuff into it that isn’t there, it’s not supposed to mean anything, it’s all just there to look cool.

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30 minutes ago, Broker said:


I mean, there’s literally nothing stopping Clark from jogging over at a normal speed and then dashing his dad to safety once people can’t see. Plus that’s not the lesson Clark learns in the movie, he ends up wearing the suit because space dad told him to. I also don’t remember him learning to use his powers. He’s got full on bus dragging powers in the flashbacks. 
 

I think you’re reading stuff into it that isn’t there, it’s not supposed to mean anything, it’s all just there to look cool, I just wanna see the original cut of Justice League!!

:lol:But there's a big whole thing about him learning to fly!!

 

Honestly it's been ages since I've seen MoS and it feels kinda crazy that I'm going through all these motions to defend it after all these years!  

 

I just want to see the original version of Justice League!

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37 minutes ago, Broker said:

I also don’t remember him learning to use his powers. He’s got full on bus dragging powers in the flashbacks.

 

There is a scene of a young Clark at school being overwhelmed by his senses when he first gets his X-ray vision and super hearing. And his first attempt at flying includes a bit where he struggles to stay in the sky, before falling and crashing through a mountain.

 

The film also pays lip service to showing the villains learning to use their powers: there's a bit in one of the fights where Zod's mask breaks and his senses get similarly disorientated. (But he adapts quickly, which IIRC is handwaved away as him being from Kryptonian's warrior caste.)

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17 minutes ago, Nick R said:

 

There is a scene of a young Clark at school being overwhelmed by his senses when he first gets his X-ray vision and super hearing. And his first attempt at flying includes a bit where he struggles to stay in the sky, before falling and crashing through a mountain.

 

The film also pays lip service to showing the villains learning to use their powers: there's a bit in one of the fights where Zod's mask breaks and his senses get similarly disorientated. (But he adapts quickly, which IIRC is handwaved away as him being from Kryptonian's warrior caste.)

And the fact that he's (Zod) an adult and trained.

 

There's even a scene after the school bus scene with Pa Kent and Clark talking about the ramifications of his powers...

 

Anyway rewatching MoS just reiterates Zynder's continuity through his films 

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