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HMV refuses PS3 pre-orders unless consumers agree to buy PSP too


daxus
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Going back to what I said about you not really knowing what the law says on this, it does seem like you've just come to a conclusion based on what you think might be right/wrong, just like the rest of us, rather than actually know for a fact what the situation is. It may be an informed opinion but it's still an opinion.

In that sense you are actually right. Law is rarely as simple as it says x here so B is right. If it was that simple you wouldn't need laywers you'd be able to just look at the law in a book and from there decide who is right or wrong. However obviously this does not occur since we get lots of cases which have to go to a judge to be decided and you have two hopefully well educated lawyers arguing that by the law what they have done is legal. Therefore really when asking anyone (particuarly a lawyer) about the law, all you are going to get is an informed opinion. Look at it from our point of view. Not only do we have to deal with numouras statutes such as SGA and UCTA which all deal with similar areas but we also have to look at case law on the subject which can be just as binding as statutes by parliament.

So yeah you are completely right in that what I was saying is just an informed opinion. When dealing with technical subjects such as Maths, Engerneering etc. it's much easier to have a right and a wrong answer. With Law there are so many different laws to consider, so many different cases to consider that as I have already pointed out it is very easy for two well educated lawyers to argue complete opposite cases on a single point of law. The examples I gave were purely to try illustrate examples that backed up opinion, but it seems they created more confusion than anything else and so I apologise for that.

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In that sense you are actually right. Law is rarely as simple as it says x here so B is right. If it was that simple you wouldn't need laywers you'd be able to just look at the law in a book and from there decide who is right or wrong.

Straight away, that makes me think laws are made far, far[more complicated than they need to be just to keep lawyers in jobs. Why can't a law be as simple as right or wrong then? I thought that's why we had them?

I absolutely begrudge having to pay solicitors when I want to buy or sell a house. ;) That goes for estate agents too. ;);)

Bloody middle men.

P.S. Charles, please don't actually reply to this, I'm not that interested.

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Straight away, that makes me think laws are made far, far[more complicated than they need to be just to keep lawyers in jobs. Why can't a law be as simple as right or wrong then? I thought that's why we had them?

And there you have one of the great problems with modern society - things made needlesley complex just to keep lots of people employed. See the civil service as another example.

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Laws arent simple because they have to apply to a wide ranging set of circumstances and be suitably applicable to them all. The wording needs to be exact to capture the intention of the law as closely as possible, as the law will be interpreted and then applied by the courts. Life isnt simple, so neither is the law.

Back to the PS3 + PSP thing though. From the HMV website it looks like its only an online thing, and involved you buying and getting a PSP now, to get on a preorder list. You end up paying for the PS3 when (if) they have it in stock on release.

If you want a PS3 and also want a PSP its ok I suppose.

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Straight away, that makes me think laws are made far, far[more complicated than they need to be just to keep lawyers in jobs. Why can't a law be as simple as right or wrong then? I thought that's why we had them?

But there are fundamental problems with laws that make that difficult:

a ) Life is actually really complicated, and if you're going to make loads of important decisions by writing down what should and shouldn't happen on a piece of paper, it's really hard to get it exactly right, both in terms of the language you use meaning exactly what you were thinking when you wrote it, and covering absolutely every eventuality that your law might turn out to be applicable to. If you make it too general, you tend to end up with all sorts of unwanted effects you never considered, and if you make it specific you're bound to miss something important.

b ) They're built on loads of existing laws which may or may not be relevant, and it's easier to keep the old stuff rather than overhaul and rewrite the whole thing. Like writing computer software - you might want to rip it all out and start again, but you haven't got time, and anyway the old stuff has got loads of little special cases in it that are there for an important but obscure reason, etc etc. The end result is 17 different laws applying to any one situation, and lawyers filling entire walls of their sumptuous offices with books.

I suppose what I'm saying is: what you say is true, it'd be nice if everything were simple, but it turns out that's bloody difficult. ;)

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Saw a notice outside HMV Worcester the other day, no mention of the PS3/P bundle. They were however accepting preorders with £100 deposits, apparently.

Um, so there you go.

It's an online only offer.

5000 ps3's set aside specifically for this deal.

£100 deposit needed instore to not guarantee a unit.

From what I've heard, you won't need to preorder to get a machine at launch.

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This really is a bizarre idea of HMVs.

Who buys an expensive new Sony console at launch - who pre-orders one even?

An early adoptor, gadget freak, hardcore game fan with lots of disposable income, that's who. Basically exactly the profile of somebody who's already bought a PSP.

I imagine that there is hardly anyone in Britian who wants a PS3 badly enough to pre-order one for launch, but doesn't already have a PSP.

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Fuck you Charles. If you're so good at the law, why do you even need to do a degree in it? Spacker.

We didn't need any of this bullshit anyway. HMV can refuse sale to anyone they like for any reason, and this can include refusing to get a PSP with the preorder. SIMPLE AS, WITH NO INTERNET LAWYER BULLSHIT.

Honestly.

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Perhaps HMV don't have too much say in the matter?

It does make good business sense to be Sony's officail retail partner for the PS3. Regardless of what the perception of the PS3 is, Playstation is a big brand and is guaranteed sales.

It seems more concievable that Sony have forced this bundle as part of a deal with HMV. Sure HMV can tell them they don't want to do it, but then they lose their exclusivity with Sony, so they kinda gotta go along with it.

I agree it is a dumb deal, but I think a lot of it might be down to Sony. Unless HMV really is run by a bunch of morons.

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Fuck you Charles. If you're so good at the law, why do you even need to do a degree in it? Spacker.

Has RLLMUK started handing out stupid pills to members again?

We didn't need any of this bullshit anyway. HMV can refuse sale to anyone they like for any reason, and this can include refusing to get a PSP with the preorder. SIMPLE AS, WITH NO INTERNET LAWYER BULLSHIT.

Well you may be simple as but you apparently don't understand that as HMV are willing to sell to people and becuase of that they do fall under legal obligations. The argument was never about whether they could choose not to sell to you, it was about whether they are allowed to bundle thier items when selling to you.

Pesky reading, it really is a chore isn't it....

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Why? What does that even mean?

So they can shout from the rooftops about having the most PS3's at launch, etc. I don't think when this deal (HMV's official launch partnership) was being hammered out either Sony or HMV could predict the level of negativity the PS3 would be attracting right now.

It would have made good sense for HMV to get into bed with Sony as the playstation is a huge brand in the UK, and the hoping on HMV's part is that this launch would generate large revenue for them as well as some decent press.

I think I read somewhere that HMV's music sales were suffering, due to downloads. It would seem to make sense that they try to grow other areas of their business. HMV isn't really the first place most people think when they look for games, so this could have been great publicity for them and to grow this area of their business. It certainly worked for the Wii launch.

However, now I think it is begining to bite them in the arse. They couldn't foresee the knd of apathy the PS3 is gaining in the press or the mind of the public a year/ six months ago when they satrt negotiating with Sony. Now they are stuck with shitty deals and negative press.

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Hang on a second... for £675 I could get

360 - £280

Wii - £180

DS Lite - £99

360 Game - £40

Wii Game - £40

DS Lite Game -£30

= £669

Plus a burger for lunch!

Don't let HMV get wind of this, or it will become their £669 DS Lite bundle.

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[snip] HMV are willing to sell to people and becuase of that they do fall under legal obligations. The argument was never about whether they could choose not to sell to you, it was about whether they are allowed to bundle thier items when selling to you.

I don't know about the legal situation in the UK, but I do know that if a retailer in Belgium tried to pull a stunt like this off, they'd get their asses sued to oblivion by all kind of consumer groups & the government. This kind of bundling is just not allowed here, and rightly so!

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well, I've taken the plunge and...

no, I haven't. Don't be fucking stupid. :lol:

:)

I don't know about the legal situation in the UK, but I do know that if a retailer in Belgium tried to pull a stunt like this off, they'd get their asses sued to oblivion by all kind of consumer groups & the government. This kind of bundling is just not allowed here, and rightly so!

Interesting. What law would they be breaching?

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