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HMV refuses PS3 pre-orders unless consumers agree to buy PSP too


daxus
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Damn, I'd just added a bit more to what I saying (LOL!). I'll repeat it here

HMV simply buy the stock from Sony and then sell it to the masses. Why are they under any obligation to sell them as they buy them?

I doubt you'd find anything in the sale of goods act which will disallow retail companies from doing the above. The SoGa is about protecting consumers, not balancing market forces.

EDIT: It's like arguing that someone on ebay who has a Snes and 14 games for sale is legally bound to sell me the snes only - Madness. The SoGa still applies for private sales, so where is the clause?

It's not like something on ebay eitherway because that's a private auction which falls under different rules. If anything it falls under Unfair Commercial Practices which is why a lot of people when the 360 was first released, went and got 360 bundles (which Game would only sell in a bundle) and either refused to buy the games with it, or bought the bundle and returned all of the games for their money back right at the till.

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Just go in and tell them they can't legally force you to buy a psp as well.

If you are wanting to preorder a ps3 from HMV they are by saying you can't preorder unless you agree to get a psp as well.

In otherwords, go in and say no you aren't getting a psp but you are pre-ordering a ps3.

Sale of Goods act I'm sure. It's not me forcing them to sell me the ps3 at a reduced price or something is it? It's not wanting something that are trying to make you agree to buy if you place a preorder.

and Craig, it says right in the article as well

"PlayStation 3 solus console is currently unavailable to order from HMV.co.uk by itself, and we kindly ask customers not to contact us with regards to this."

Sales of goods act applies post purchase. Up to the purchase the shop can sell to who they want and refuse to who they want. Conditions of sale included.

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It's not like something on ebay eitherway because that's a private auction which falls under different rules. If anything it falls under Unfair Commercial Practices which is why a lot of people when the 360 was first released, went and got 360 bundles (which Game would only sell in a bundle) and returned all of the games for their money back right at the till.

Sale of Goods Act still applies to ebay. And the analogy is still completely valid. There's no seperate rules for ebay or online auctions (ebay isn't even an auction, it's auction 'style' selling).

There's nothing in the SoGa which forces retailers to sell stock as they bought it. Why would any government bring in legislation which forces anyone to sell things in the manner of which you describe?

Unfair Commercial Practices simply refers to treating (amazingly enough!) consumers unfairly. But you're not obliged to buy from HMV, so it's hardly 'unfair' is it? It would only be unfair if HMV had exclusive distribution rights to the PS3, which they haven't.

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According to maxconsole, Amazon.de are doing the same thing. This means it is probably a deal that Sony offered suppliers rather than HMV just making up on their own.

In my experience it probably meant they got the PSP's free/cheap.

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Sale of Goods Act still applies to ebay. And the analogy is still completely valid. There's no seperate rules for ebay or online auctions (ebay isn't even an auction, it's auction 'style' selling).

Apparently it doesn't

The biggest problem for eBay shoppers is that you are not covered by the same consumer rules that protect you when you are buying from a High Street store, or indeed another online trader.

Neither the Sale of Goods Act - which says everything you buy should be fit for its purpose, as it was described, of satisfactory quality and able to be returned if faulty - nor Distance Selling Regulations, which entitle you to send back something you bought online if it is not what you expected, apply for eBay.

This is because it is essentially the same as buying from a car or antiques auction, where the principle of Buyer Beware applies.

There's nothing in the SoGa which forces retailers to sell stock as they bought it. Why would any government bring in legislation which forces anyone to sell things in the manner of which you describe?

I still would have thought there would be something in it about it, but hey ho.

Unfair Commercial Practices simply refers to treating (amazingly enough!) unfairly. But you're not obliged to buy from HMV, so it's hardly 'unfair' is it? It would only be unfair if HMV had exclusive distribution rights to the PS3, which they haven't.

It's not just that, it also gives examples like

•Bait advertising

“Making an invitation to purchase products at a

specified price without disclosing the existence of

any reasonable grounds the trader may have for

believing that he will not be able to offer for supply

or to procure another trader to supply, those

products or equivalent products at that price for a

period that is, and in quantities that are, reasonable

having regard to the product, the scale of

advertising of the product and the price offered.”

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Well, either way, the Unfair Commercial Practices directive doesn't apply in this case. The example it gives protects consumers from when people say "guaranteed console", without having the ability to deliver on time.

I'm flabbergasted about the SoGa and eBay though.

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Wicked Kitten, you're wrong, everyone else is right. Trust me. I do a law degree, the law has absoutely no bearing on what HMV choose to sell and what price they choose to sell it at. They buy the goods from thier suppliers but they can sell them in whatever manner thay like. Don't think of it as buying a PS3 and also then having to buy a PSP. It's not like that. HMV are simply offering a product which includes both the PS3 and the PSP which they are completely entitled to do.

Would you go into Marks and Spencers and demand that thier knives and fork starter set be split so you only have to buy the forks? You could but you would have no legally basis for demanding that they split thier products. What about with a pack that includes Sweet and Sour Chicken and Rice. Are you about to go and demand that they only sell you the rice? What about those triple packs of DVD's that are often released, do you seriously think that you are entitled to go to a shop and say under the law you only want to buy one of those movies. The same principle applies here. HMV can sell thier inventory in what ever manner they like. As long as the PSP and PS3 go though the tills as a single product (e.g. HMV Sony games bundle) they can offer whatever they like, however they like. The only potential legal recourse is if they sold them seperately with a clause saying that by buying a PS3 you then had to agree to buy a PSP. That might fall under Unfair Contract Terms Act but I still don't think you would be able to prove a case even using that example since in this case the terms would have been made clear to you when buying and probably not that unreasonble.

Sorry, but you are completely wrong. What HMV are doing may be profiteering but it is in no way illegal under UK law. You have absolutely no right to dictate to a trader on how they choose to sell thier goods. They present you with an offer. There is no obligation for you to accept if you don't like what they are offering you.

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Wicked Kitten, your wrong, everyone else is right. Trust me. I do a law degree, the law has absoutely no bearing on what HMV choose to sell and what price they choose to sell it at. They buy the goods from thier suppliers but they can sell them in whatever manner thay like. Don't think of it as buying a PS3 and also then having to buy a PSP. It's not like that. HMV are simply offering a product which includes both the PS3 and the PSP which they are completely entitled to do.

Would you go into Marks and Spencers and demand that thier kives and fork starter set be split so you only have to buy the forks? You could but you would have no legally basis for demanding that they split thier products. What about with a pack that includes Sweet and Sour Chicken and Rice. Are you about to go and demand that they only sell you the rice? What about those triple packs of DVD's that are often released, do you seriously think that you are entitled to go to a shop and say under the law you only want to buy one of those movies. The same principle applies here. HMV can sell thier inventory in what ever manner they like. As long as the PSP and PS3 go though the tills as a single product (e.g. HMV Sony games bundle) they can offer whatever they like, however they like. The only potential legal recourse is if they seold them seperately with a clause saying that by buying a PS3 you then had to agree to buy a PSP. That might fall under Unfair Contract Terms Act but I still don't think you would be able to prove a case even using that example since in this case the terms would have been made clear to you when buying and probably not that unreasonble.

Sorry, but you are completely wrong. What HMV are doing may be profiteering but it is in no way illegal under UK law. You have absolutely no right to dictate to a trader on how they choose to sell thier goods. They present you with an offer. There is no obligation for you to accept if you don't like what they are offering you.

There you have it....

Very well put i might add :)

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I still would have thought there would be something in it about it, but hey ho.

You think there is a law that says you can only sell goods in the manner in which they were sold to you?!

Tell me please how the guy who buys bits of wood and makes tables out of that wood is going to get round that little problem?

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Why ?

Also think or the RRP - manufacturers can set an RRP and then anyone can sell below it. If you where not allowed to sell at whatever top price you want to you couldnt set a lower price so it works both ways.

Because I am. I would have naturally assumed that the SoGa would apply. I have come across Buyer Beware (and with the hassle I'm having with ebay / paypal at the moment, this has never been more apt :)) before, but because eBay isn't an auction, I would have assumed the SoGa is applicable.

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What a complete and utter waste of typing Charles. Of course I wouldn't expect them to sell me individual knifes out of a set mainly because of the fact that they have have been bundled as a set by the manufacturer. However, like I already said in the case of the people buying 360 bundles from Game over christmases, they got around it by either refusing to buy the games citing unfair terms or by buying the bundle and then returning the game at the till which they told the staff they were entitled to do.

I had already conceeded the point about the sale of goods act.

Edit: and before you mention it, yes Game could have refused to sell them the console anyway but apparently they sold it anyway which is the exact reason why I suggested saying to do the same thing with HMV in this case.

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What a complete and utter waste of typing Charles. Of course I wouldn't expect them to sell me individual knifes out of a set mainly because of the fact that they have have been bundled as a set by the manufacturer. However, like I already said in the case of the people buying 360 bundles from Game over christmases, they got around it by either refusing to buy the games citing unfair terms or by buying the bundle and then returning the game at the till which they told the staff they were entitled to do.

I had already conceeded the point about the sale of goods act.

GAME can and in some cases did refuse to sell the 360 consoles on their own, it was simply down to the manager's discretion. The reason people could return the games is that it is actually part of GAME's T&C, returning games from bundles is allowed.

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GAME can and in some cases did refuse to sell the 360 consoles on their own, it was simply down to the manager's discretion. The reason people could return the games is that it is actually part of GAME's T&C, returning games from bundles is allowed.

I personally think that was fair imo, because that's exactly what i did when i purchased a couple for me and friends.

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Would you go into Marks and Spencers and demand that thier knives and fork starter set be split so you only have to buy the forks? You could but you would have no legally basis for demanding that they split thier products. What about with a pack that includes Sweet and Sour Chicken and Rice. Are you about to go and demand that they only sell you the rice? What about those triple packs of DVD's that are often released, do you seriously think that you are entitled to go to a shop and say under the law you only want to buy one of those movies. The same principle applies here. HMV can sell thier inventory in what ever manner they like. As long as the PSP and PS3 go though the tills as a single product (e.g. HMV Sony games bundle) they can offer whatever they like, however they like. The only potential legal recourse is if they sold them seperately with a clause saying that by buying a PS3 you then had to agree to buy a PSP. That might fall under Unfair Contract Terms Act but I still don't think you would be able to prove a case even using that example since in this case the terms would have been made clear to you when buying and probably not that unreasonble.

Sorry, but you are completely wrong. What HMV are doing may be profiteering but it is in no way illegal under UK law. You have absolutely no right to dictate to a trader on how they choose to sell thier goods. They present you with an offer. There is no obligation for you to accept if you don't like what they are offering you.

Sorry to be picky (even though Wickedkitten is wrong) but every example you've given there is an example of something that Marks and Spencers would buy in as a single unit, ie: sweet and sour chicken and rice wouldnt be bought in seperately and then offered only as a single unit - they'd be bought in as a single unit and thus have a single sku/barcode attached to them. HMV is blatantly not doing this, as they are advertising as getting the psp now, so obviously they are making the bundles themselves as they already have stock of the psps to go out. I doubt very much that when you'd get it, it'd be processed as a single product, like you suggested, or have some kind of "part of a bundle - do not sell seperately" which the multibuy dvds and such you mentioned in your example do.

Its still knitpicking and largely irrelevant though - at the end of the day, hmv are under no obligation to offer you the item by itself.

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What a complete and utter waste of typing Charles. Of course I wouldn't expect them to sell me individual knifes out of a set mainly because of the fact that they have have been bundled as a set by the manufacturer. However, like I already said in the case of the people buying 360 bundles from Game over christmases, they got around it by either refusing to buy the games citing unfair terms or by buying the bundle and then returning the game at the till which they told the staff they were entitled to do.

How do you know that the Knives and Forks were bundled together by the manufacturer? It's more than likely that M&S would buy them seperately and then market them as a starter bundle.

What you don't seem to get is that the manufacturer has nothing to do with this. Yes we all know that the PS3 and PSP are different products but HMV can sell them in whatever manner they like. The law does not look at how a trader procures his goods or what his terms with the manufacturer are.

What about those Stew Starter packs which include lots of different vegtables, obviously these would have been sourced from compeltely different suppliers and then packed up together. Are you really telling me you can then go and demand they be split becuase the supplier did not buy them as one pack. Really?

Unfair terms? Bundles? What are you talking about? I have no idea what situation you are referring to. If someone pre-orders a 360 and then Game wants them to buy games after they have formed the original contract then yes you can refuse to buy the games becuase that term was not stated when you agreed to the original contract. It would be akin to a Hotel demanding that you purchase an item from the gift shop if at the time of the contract you had only booked a room. However in this case it is being made very clear that this offer includes a PSP and a PS3 and some games. Once you have accepted this offer it becomes contractual. You would not be able to under the law to on release day demand that they then break the binding contract that has been placed upon each party.

As for returning the games. The Sale of Goods act only covers faulty items. All other return policies are at retailers discretion and not obliged by UK law. Yes perhaps some stores would allow this to happen but we are arguing about the law here and not each retailers intervidual policies. You said that you would be able to walk into HMV and say you will not buy the PSP. Under UK law you have no right to do this. It's as simple as that. Yes maybe the retailer will let you do it, but they have no obligation to under UK law.

The only possible way around I can see is using the Long distance selling regulations to return the product within 7 days. However under those regulations I would imagine you would have to return the whole order including the PS3 console so I do not think that is a workable idea.

I am actually sorry I have wasted this long typing becuase obviously it is lost on you or you. I know what I am talking about and it is becoming incresingly apparent with each post you make on the subject that you do not.

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Sorry to be picky (even though Wickedkitten is wrong) but every example you've given there is an example of something that Marks and Spencers would buy in as a single unit, ie: sweet and sour chicken and rice wouldnt be bought in seperately and then offered only as a single unit - they'd be bought in as a single unit and thus have a single sku/barcode attached to them. HMV is blatantly not doing this, as they are advertising as getting the psp now, so obviously they are making the bundles themselves as they already have stock of the psps to go out. I doubt very much that when you'd get it, it'd be processed as a single product, like you suggested, or have some kind of "part of a bundle - do not sell seperately" which the multibuy dvds and such you mentioned in your example do.

Its still knitpicking and largely irrelevant though - at the end of the day, hmv are under no obligation to offer you the item by itself.

Hey, I'll admit myself that I'm wrong.

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