Babylon 5

[Aardvark]

I think SF fans can generally be much more forgiving of things like bad effects and bad writing, simply because to enjoy the genre, you usually have to. The same goes for literary SF – there are vanishingly few SF authors who can do the literary stuff as well as the ideas stuff. It's like looking for a footballer with a PhD. Being good at one discipline normally doesn't leave much time for being good at another.

Certainly true of hard science fiction, but the softer end of things seems to have no shortage of rather good writers. Not necessarily very commercially successful ones, and often not liked very much in the US, but they definitely exist.

[K]

Certainly true of hard science fiction, but the softer end of things seems to have no shortage of rather good writers. Not necessarily very commercially successful ones, and often not liked very much in the US, but they definitely exist.

True. I was referring more to nuts, bolts 'n sliderules hard SF – there aren't many authors that I know of that can do big sciencey ideas and characters. The two seem to be mutually exclusive. Soft SF does seems to attract people who can write better, but Babylon 5 strikes me as being strictly in the Niven & Pournelle school of SF, rather than the Le Guin/Aldiss side of things.

[Scribblor]

True. I was referring more to nuts, bolts 'n sliderules hard SF – there aren't many authors that I know of that can do big sciencey ideas and characters. The two seem to be mutually exclusive. Soft SF does seems to attract people who can write better, but Babylon 5 strikes me as being strictly in the Niven & Pournelle school of SF, rather than the Le Guin/Aldiss side of things.

Very true. As much as I love Le Guin, characterisation isn't her strong suit. Reading The Dispossessed kind of feels like being hit in the face with a sledgehammer over and over again. Didactic doesn't even begin to cover it!

[Eighthours]

I've been going through this again having downloaded a megatorrent of everything B5-related. Only a couple of days to go until it's finished, but in the meantime season one popped up on Virgin Media's VOD service, which was very handy.

It's been heavy-going in places - the "Believers" episode had some amazing direlogue like, "In the name of The Egg!" but happily I'm now up to just before Signs and Portents, which is the introduction of Morden. I remember that episode being awesome.

[Sprite Machine]

On 26/03/2007 at 13:45, Eighthours said:

I've been going through this again having downloaded a megatorrent of everything B5-related.

That's a great idea, even seven years later! 

I have never seen a single episode of Babylon 5, but as a fan of classic Trek and serialised sci-fi, I think I should give it a go finally. Plus, it's been HD-ified and everything now. And some clever soul has put all the videos into a preferred viewing order, so that's pretty much my next few months of telly sorted.

 

I'll report back as I watch...

[Bacon Horsemeat]

You're in a for a treat!

 

And that is one mega mega bump...

 

 

[Mogster]

7 hours ago, Sprite Machine said:

And some clever soul has put all the videos into a preferred viewing order

Just checking, but is this one of those "chronological order" lists, or just a "when to watch the TV movies" type thing? I'd avoid any chronological reordering's for a first watch at least, and definitely don't watch "In The Beginning" first!

 

Otherwise, enjoy!

[monkeydog]

7 hours ago, Sprite Machine said:

That's a great idea, even seven years later! 

I have never seen a single episode of Babylon 5, but as a fan of classic Trek and serialised sci-fi, I think I should give it a go finally. Plus, it's been HD-ified and everything now. And some clever soul has put all the videos into a preferred viewing order, so that's pretty much my next few months of telly sorted.

 

I'll report back as I watch...

 

I'm not sure they should change the broadcast order, other than one or two episodes.  Even some of the poorer S1 episodes have sprinklings of the broader story ahead. 

 

I find it somewhat hilarious/depressing that time gap for you experiencing B5 is bigger than me watching TOS episodes during the 80's.  That felt like utterly ancient tele!

[Eighthours]

9 hours ago, Sprite Machine said:

That's a great idea, even seven years later! 

I have never seen a single episode of Babylon 5, but as a fan of classic Trek and serialised sci-fi, I think I should give it a go finally. Plus, it's been HD-ified and everything now. And some clever soul has put all the videos into a preferred viewing order, so that's pretty much my next few months of telly sorted.

 

I'll report back as I watch...

 

I really wouldn't do a preferred viewing order, unless the only changes are to where to put the 'TV movies'. And if that is the case, ignore ANYTHING that puts 'In The Beginning' earlier than the end of season 4, as it'll ruin loads of stuff if you watch it first chronologically.

 

Actually, could you link us to the preferred viewing order and then we can check it out to see whether it's legit or a bad idea.

[JohnC]

I always find changing the order a bit weird. Except maybe for shows made in a certain order and the studio interfere to change it, like Firefly and some other stuff. 

[Thor]

You can skip TKO, and the absolutely godawful Penn & Teller episode (I forget the name of the episode). Those two really stuck out for me as proper dogshit. 

[Sprite Machine]

I'm gonna watch the whole thing. I've sat through some right shit, I can handle this. 

 

This is the viewing order I'm using:

http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=11675

 

Without spoiling anything for myself by reading too much into it, it's mostly the same as broadcast order for the main seasons, with a few episodes moved around based on commentary from the show's creator. As I understand it, effects-lite episodes were pushed forwards if effect-heavy episodes weren't ready in time, etc.

 

As per the B5 fan wiki:

Quote

For the most part [original broadcast order] doesn't disrupt the viewing experience, however there are a handful of minor continuity issues which, based on comments from JMS, seem to come from a small number of episodes having had their positions shifted for production reasons:

 

[Mogster]

9 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

I'm gonna watch the whole thing. I've sat through some right shit, I can handle this. 

 

This is the viewing order I'm using:

http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=11675

 

Without spoiling anything for myself by reading too much into it, it's mostly the same as broadcast order for the main seasons, with a few episodes moved around based on commentary from the show's creator. As I understand it, effects-lite episodes were pushed forwards if effect-heavy episodes weren't ready in time, etc.

 

As per the B5 fan wiki:

 

That doesn't look too bad, but it's a bit flabby. I don't think you need to suffer through Legend of the Rangers, and I wouldn't bother with Crusade either. I'd save stuff like that for after you've finished Babylon 5 itself rather than drag things out. I remember A Call To Arms being decent, but it's also something of a prelude to Crusade so I'd probably save it for later too.

 

I remember Thirdspace and River of Souls being basically stand-alone. They're placed where they are in your list as that's where they happen to sit chronologically, but I don't think they add anything to the ongoing story. I don't remember them being anything special, so I'd probably save them for later too, personally.

 

I haven't watched The Lost Tales, so can't comment on those other than they clearly aren't essential.

 

Otherwise that looks alright, I think.

[monkeydog]

I quite like the Lost Tales. Wish they'd done more.  It's just a curio for after you've done the main series, like the TV movies and Crusade.  I don't even think In the Beginning really belongs in chronological order.  It kind of robs some future scenes of their impact.

[Benny]

Yeah hot damn don't watch In The Beginning at the beginning. Only watch it after season 4 I think.

[Benny]

It's basically best to watch any of the TV movies at the same place where they came out during the run of the main series, so in other words all broadcast order. And main series in broadcast order with maybe a couple of them swapped around a bit for a little continuity but it's not essential.

 

Also what happened to the other more recent topic

[Sprite Machine]

The prequel movie is at the end, don't worry!

 

The only thing I'm not sure about is why this order puts season 4's conclusion after season 5's conclusion... but I don't want to know if the reason is spoilery.

[Benny]

2 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

The prequel movie is at the end, don't worry!

 

The only thing I'm not sure about is why this order puts season 4's conclusion after season 5's conclusion... but I don't want to know if the reason is spoilery.

 

Yeah honestly I would suggest not to watch it like that: as you've never seen it before just watch the seasons in order, and the movies in order of what season they came out after. I don't think those episodes should be swapped personally. So go for broadcast order for all of it I strongly suggest.

[Eighthours]

OK, having read that link, you should go for broadcast order instead. Just make your way through the seasons as they are on Amazon/Apple (you can get all the eps for the entire run of the show in their new HD versions on Apple for £49.99).

 

If you want to watch the TV movies, do In The Beginning and Thirdspace after Season 4, which is when they were originally released in terms of production order, and River of Souls and Call To Arms after Season 5 when they were originally released. As Call To Arms is essentially a pilot for the Crusade spin-off series, it's far from essential viewing. The TV movies aren't part of B5 when you buy the show on the streaming services, and I don't think they've been remastered either.

 

Watch Sleeping In Light, the final episode of B5, at the end of season 5 where it both aired and belongs. And that wacky placement of the final ep of season 4 is bonkers, just watch that where it aired in the run.

 

Bear in mind that the pilot episode is BAD (and it may well be at the very end of bought eps as a 'bonus', rather than first - it's called 'The Gathering'), and that season 1 takes a while to get going. It's only at the halfway point of season 1 where the story arc stuff starts coming into focus. Don't lose heart, the show gets really good!

 

There is no need to watch Crusade (cancelled after less than 1 season, with its running order butchered on TNT), and even less need to watch the awful Legend of the Rangers pilot! But if you want more B5-verse after the main show, feel free!

 

So yes:

1. Buy B5 on Amazon or Apple - all 5 seasons for £49.99 on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/tv-season/babylon-5-the-complete-series/id1149081337

2. The pilot episode may be a 'bonus' episode that's actually last in the order! It's bad.

3. Then watch series 1-5's episodes in the order they appear in the download, and you can insert In The Beginning and Thirdspace separately at the end of season 4 if you want.

4. Watch Call to Arms and River of Souls if you must.

 

I rewatched the show last year and had a great time, so do let us know how you're getting on as you watch it!

 

[Sprite Machine]

OK, so the pilot episode was... fine. A little bit of world-building, a nice mystery plot, ending with a fight. Everything sets up and pays off in a complete story with some threads hanging for future. Production quality was pretty good (sets, lighting, etc.). Acting is a mixed bag, as are the characters, but some of them show promise. Dialogue is a very expositiony ("did I ever tell you about my tragic backstory?"). VFX is very... 90s videogame, which I knew it would be. It's fine, solid enough episode.

 

I have no idea how it relates to the rest of the series, as TV pilots often change loads of things. I half expect a new cast to pop up in episode 1! But we'll see.

 

But holy shit did Deep Space Nine rip off a lot of this! Yowzer! 

[Benny]

If the pilot episode didn't put you off that's a good sign, as it's gradually uphill from here into great heights.

 

Yes Deep Space 9 would not be half the show it was without Babylon 5.

[Spacehost]

1 hour ago, Sprite Machine said:

But holy shit did Deep Space Nine rip off a lot of this! Yowzer! 

I think there were lawsuits, either someone who went on to write DS9 pitched to the B5 lot first or vice versa.

 

Of course there's a lot of difference in the actual execution in the end, I bet there were a lot of hmmmmmmmmmmms back in the day.

[Sprite Machine]

So, broadcast order for now. S01E01 - "Midnight on the Firing Line".

 

We have a new first officer and new telepathic woman in the cast. Most of the pilot cast seem to have returned, however. There's also simpler cinematography, fewer FX shots, significantly fewer background extras and no stunts. But the image quality is superb, so there's that.

 

The world-building and interspecies politics continues. Still more "let me tell you about my tragic past" type dialogue. Aliens that all have big hair is a little bit "planet of hats", but fuck it, I've seen worse! That Londo dude can chew the scenery.

Weirdly abrupt final scene with Commander Gruff McBlandface just going to bed while someone's trying to tell him something.

It's clear watching this why Star Trek held off of doing CGI space scenes for so long - this early stuff really doesn't hold up well at all compared to good quality model work. But it is what it is, and I'll take the rough with the smooth.

[Alex W.]

Are you watching it in widescreen, out of curiosity? When it first came out on DVD they redid it in 16:9 because the live action was shot that way, but they couldn’t redo the CGI in widescreen. So they had to cut up and expand the NTSC videotape(!) effects footage in to 16:9 and so those segments are something like 320i composite video. Don’t know if they ever threw in the towel and went back to 4:3 where it’d at least have a little more resolution to play with.

 

(IIRC they also didn’t deinterlace the video properly which was a whole other thing.)

[Sprite Machine]

The remastered episodes are 4:3 (except for the title sequences, weirdly).
 

All the live action footage has been rescanned from the celluloid, so that's proper HD and looks great. The VFX shots have been upscaled using AI, which is surprisingly effective since the algorithms are good at sharpening straight edges and simple shapes. You almost wouldn't know it's upscaled!

[Sprite Machine]

Eps 2 and 3 ('Soul Hunter' and 'Born to the Purple') are a couple of standalone alien-of-the-week stories, either with some intriguing threads for future stories or a touching B-plot. Average at best, but I'm starting to like some of the characters, or at least remember their names!

[PK]

Having rewatched it all myself recently I'm thoroughly excited to read your reactions, especially to when things shifts gear into overdrive @Sprite Machine

 

Very jealous of you getting to watch it all for the first time!

[Sprite Machine]

Ep4, 'Infection'. The kind of one-off sci-fi high concept episode with a touch of social commentary that I used to love in Star Trek, although this one is fairly cheesy and ends with the commander pulling a 'Kirk' and talking the machine to death. The music so far feels like it's from the '80s, all synthy and over-the-top, but I'm digging it.

I think Garibaldi is my favourite character so far, though no-one really stands out yet.

[Benny]

Oddly enough I think the above episode was where I started watching Babylon 5. I'd seen the pilot before that but I think missed a couple of episodes at the start.

 

I've often thought the biomechanical machine in that episode looks and sounds like a Strogg from Quake 2. Predating that game by years of course.

[Benny]

Also that episode guest stars an actor from The Great Escape!