Destiny: FIN

[Lyrical Donut]

Aye, just wait until the super is over, then, to beat it.

Or, you know. Use a bit of prediction and shut it down early. The choice is yours.

I think everyone here who isn't wedded to Titanness knows the Sunbreaker super is a bit... off-balance.

I use all classes in PvP, btw. I've had the most success with tether by chucking it out early.

Because if you're the Titan, you don't have to deliberately miss, or wait until your super actually does something. You just chuck that hammer and the other guy dies.

Nope, you don't just chuck a hammer willy nilly. You need to do some aiming.

It's it reasonable to want the tether to either kill (which it usually does) or at least activate instantly on a direct hit?

Even if the opponent has an overshield? Now that's definitely overpowered.

[Gorf King]

I still don't agree that the Sunbreaker is too OP.

You've only played PvP in TTK as a Sunbreaker Titan. Give it time - you might change your mind.

[Uncle Mike]

It's hard to see what that guy could have done differently to survive. From the moment he hears the "dong" (down the alley way from the heavy) I think he's dead. Which is a bit harsh, considering he's sitting on a tether.

What he should have done, like Lyrical said, is fire it at the corner before the Titan came into sight. Like, it's all hindsight and everything, but the Bing of the hammer is super-clear for a reason. You know what's coming at you.

But yeah, I do agree it seems off that you successfully Tether a chap and he can Super you in revenge.

[Gorf King]

Or, you know. Use a bit of prediction and shut it down early. The choice is yours.

So once it's active and the guy is throwing hammers - because he was round the corner when he activated it, as usual, and you just heard the thunk - you just run away? That's it? That's your idea of 'a super can be counteracted by any super'?

[Uncle Mike]

You've only played PvP in TTK as a Sunbreaker Titan. Give it time - you might change your mind.

Yeah, but I've had a year of Bladedancers tracking me through multiple jumps and taking full clips to the face. Supers are OP.

[Soi]

I still don't agree that the Sunbreaker is too OP.

I don't think they are massively OP. and I think their damage output is fine. But their damage resistance (especially with cauterize) is too high in my view to compared to other classes. If I see a Bladedancer, I have a chance to do something about it (e.g. sniper headshot or teamshooting) to bring him down. If I see a Sunbreaker, I'm probably already dead.

[Lyrical Donut]

So once it's active and the guy is throwing hammers - because he was round the corner when he activated it, as usual, and you just heard the thunk - you just run away? That's it? That's your idea of 'a super can be counteracted by any super'?

Well in that particular situation, with heavy just up. I reckon there's a fair chance the Titan would be coming that way. So yes, I'd back off and throw a speculative tether down. Why? Because I've done exactly that several times during IB last week and it worked a treat. Works wonders when you hear ANY super pop around a corner too.

And yes, that is an example of a super counteracting another super, believe it or not

[Gorf King]

Yeah, but I've had a year of Bladedancers tracking me through multiple jumps and taking full clips to the face. Supers are OP.

Yeah, but super to super - you can easily kill a BD with a Titan smash. Or with a GG shot. I've done it, and had it done to me, loads of times. It's about super to super. Also, as I've said repeatedly, this:

I don't think they are massively OP. and I think their damage output is fine. But their damage resistance (especially with cauterize) is too high in my view to compared to other classes. If I see a Bladedancer, I have a chance to do something about it (e.g. sniper headshot or teamshooting) to bring him down. If I see a Sunbreaker, I'm probably already dead.

Yes, this. You shouldn't be both walking tank and walking death-dealer. It shouldn't take 2 GG shots to kill you.

And yes, that is an example of a super counteracting another super, believe it or not

What do you do with GG - shoot it a few minutes in advance?

[Lyrical Donut]

What do you do with GG - shoot it a few minutes in advance?

OK, now you're just being silly - maybe you should have a shot at that Defence Minister gig

I'd probably get the fuck out of there to be honest. Unless team mates were nearby, then they'd probably get team shot pretty quickly.

[Kryptonian]

Does a headshot with the GG kill a sunbreaker in one?

[Gorf King]

No.

Aye, Lyrical, that would be the correct approach. Because your super isn't worth jack shit against a Sunbreaker.

'All it takes is a super or grenade to shut any Super down, though.'

[Lyrical Donut]

No.

Aye, Lyrical, that would be the correct approach. Because your super isn't worth jack shit against a Sunbreaker.

'All it takes is a super or grenade WITH SUPPRESSION to shut any Super down, though.'

Fixed

[Gorf King]

You'd need to do more than that to fix that claim.

[Lyrical Donut]

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at now. That's how it's been since day 1.

You either get out of there, or suppress, dependant on your choice of subclass. It's that simple.

It's by no means a Sunbreaker specific tactic either.

[Mr Ben]

Only needs 4

For some reason I wanted to put 4, but pressed the 5 key by mistake. I think its this cold/whatever the fuck it is that's screwing with my brain today

Aye, just wait until the super is over, then, to beat it.

You also said the Titan 'jumped out of the way' of the super. He didn't. He was hit point blank by it, but didn't die. He also wasn't tethered by it immediately, so he could kill his attacker even though his attacker reacted quicker, and took the perfect shot with a super designed not only to kill but to shut down other supers. Against a Sunbreaker neither of those things work.

Your suggested workaround is to deliberately miss your shots with your super, and then wait. And then, once tethered, presumably kill the Titan who of course isn't still shooting at you. Now that might work, but in a game where, as you say, 'a super can be countered with a super', that sounds a bit broken to me. Because if you're the Titan, you don't have to deliberately miss, or wait until your super actually does something. You just chuck that hammer and the other guy dies.

I think everyone here who isn't wedded to Titanness knows the Sunbreaker super is a bit... off-balance. So aye, let's just leave it at that. It'll get dialled down - or other supers will get dialled up - and you know it. Because the reviled Bladedance did, after all, and you cited that as OP too. So I can't see Bungie introducing something OP like this and then just leaving it in its current state.

Oh it'll be nerfed. I just hope its not nerfed to the point of Bladedancers, as Titans actually need a ranged super, as Striker is a bit crap now with all the ranged supers going on.

I dont want a return to year 1 where us poor Titans were the only class with no ranged super. We were kind of the odd guy out.

Edit: in other news I got my void exotic sword thanks to Harsin and Rambo. Cheers both you's.

[Nate Dogg III]

Supers are OP.

Took all afternoon and two pages of grumpiness, but there you go.

I think it's perspective really. I spent most of year one running away from bladedancers and golden guns - sometimes even successfully. When I turned a corner one night last week and flung a hammer at a just-activated bladedancer I just about laughed myself a new hole. So cathartic.

They will nerf Sunbreaker, but not massively. The most sensible thing to do in the meantime is learn to counter it - be that by shutting it down or getting out of its way. You're still going to need to do that after whatever fix is coming. And you'll still need to accept that sometimes, if a guy has his super up and you don't then you're going to die, because that's what supers are for.

All that said, fuck Stormcaller.

[Gorf King]

They will nerf Sunbreaker, but not massively.

[Harsin]

I'm doing that come in top 3 in Rumble twice quest. Every bleeding game I entered had a full fireteam trying to cheese that stupid Gunsmith quest. So essentially it was me and two randoms not only fighting each other, but also a coordinated team at the same time. About as much fun as rectal surgery. I don't blame the players, it's bad quest design that encourages this behaviour.

Back in the early days of the 360 devs would often put in MP achievements dependent on fiddly stuff. It invariably lead to shitty games for everyone (one game, I forget which, actually had an achievement for betraying your teammates, no lie). Most devs quickly learned the lesson and removed them. If Bungie want Crucible quests then just make them super generic 'Complete X games or the like' that won't spoil others experiences.

[Mr Ben]

Yes. Fuck Stormcaller. I actually get killed by that more than Sunbreakers on my Hunter. Really freaking annoying, and all that lightning everywhere fucks up my aim on GG so I die before I can hit the bastard

Ahem.

Yes, supers are OP.

It'll actually be nice to play Halo 5 next week with no supers or red bars

And Nate. When the nerf hits, I will be back to point at that post mind

[Lyrical Donut]

They will nerf Sunbreaker, but not massively.

I expect they will too, given all the whining going on. But surely a direct tether hit still wouldn't be able to kill a Titan with an overshield outright. There would be no point to having an overshield. Plus you'd get all the Warlocks moaning about their now defunct overshields too.

People seem be acting like Bungie just added these supers a couple of weeks ago without any kind of testing.

ANYWAY. Destiny - it's alright, innit?

[Soi]

My point about tethering was that a direct hit should either kill or tether. Against over shielded (or super up) targets, not killing is fine. But not tethering on direct hit is harsh.

[Oz]

All that said, fuck Stormcaller.

whoa. we were talking about sunbreakers.

tbh regardless of who's right in this argument I'd rather they left things to settle a while longer before messing with anything again.

[Shimmyhill]

Aye, just wait until the super is over, then, to beat it.

You also said the Titan 'jumped out of the way' of the super. He didn't. He was hit point blank by it, but didn't die. He also wasn't tethered by it immediately, so he could kill his attacker even though his attacker reacted quicker, and took the perfect shot with a super designed not only to kill but to shut down other supers. Against a Sunbreaker neither of those things work.

Your suggested workaround is to deliberately miss your shots with your super, and then wait. And then, once tethered, presumably kill the Titan who of course isn't still shooting at you. Now that might work, but in a game where, as you say, 'a super can be countered with a super', that sounds a bit broken to me. Because if you're the Titan, you don't have to deliberately miss, or wait until your super actually does something. You just chuck that hammer and the other guy dies.

I think everyone here who isn't wedded to Titanness knows the Sunbreaker super is a bit... off-balance. So aye, let's just leave it at that. It'll get dialled down - or other supers will get dialled up - and you know it. Because the reviled Bladedance did, after all, and you cited that as OP too. So I can't see Bungie introducing something OP like this and then just leaving it in its current state.

I still get killed far more by GG than hammer of doom, GG is almost impossible to defend against as it has so much range and aim assist you often can't run away but Titan hammer you can run away as soon as you here it pop - if I'm going to die then i will try and hit the titan or grenade them and let my team mates know so they can finish them off.

Im not convinced the Titan is OP with its super, they are lame ass without so it seems to balance out IMO - As many have said it seems more a case of learning to deal with them much like blade dancer and nova bombs, again the only super you can do fuck all about is GG.

Tether is an odd one, no idea why anyone would run one tbh - its a support thing but dealing with them as a non titan hammer of doom player seems straight forward, I sniped a hunter while in his tether and no one else on his team was around to pick us off!

[Uncle Mike]

A tether at the right time can be devastating. Pop everyone waiting for the Heavy, or mid-cap, and your team will pick them off. But it's not the obvious PvP sub for a Hunter, no. On the other hand, Hunters had 2 great PvP subs already.

[Lyrical Donut]

Yep, and Titans just had one useful super with no range at all.

My point about tethering was that a direct hit should either kill or tether. Against over shielded (or super up) targets, not killing is fine. But not tethering on direct hit is harsh.

The Titan did get tethered momentarily in that video, enough to lose his Super and shield. If opposing team mates had been nearby waiting for the heavy he would've been toast. Despite the Hunter dying the super did it's job in a delayed trade kinda way.

[Gorf King]

A point of order is due here, I think.

History is history. To use Lyrical's word, let's consider the current 'whinging' about Sunbreakers. I also hear a few people 'whinging' about Bladedancers here, about their past imbalance. The same way they 'whinged' about blink, and about shotguns. I did hear them do that, right? I'm pretty sure I wasn't mistaken. You'd think the game was ruined by these things by some of the comments that were made, even though there were 'strategies to overcome' their effect back then. There definitely were, right? Getting out of the fucking way. Or using a suppression grenade. Or predicting what the enemy would do next. Team killing them. Whatever. But they were still said to be OP, right?

But history is history, so there's no point in going on now about how 'OP' Bladedancers were, or Thorn was, or blink was, because they've all become less so. Because they've all been nerfed to one extent or another, because they were considered OP.

Now, that was called 'balancing' by some. They applauded it. Some of those same people who think the Sunbreaker's mix of seven lethal one-hit-kill shots that also have AOE, plus super replenshing extra armour that means a GG head shot won't kill them isn't... a bit unbalanced. Unbalanced not because, as Nate puts it, they think they should be able to survive a Sunbreaker attack if their super isn't up, but because they think if it is up, it should count if they get a direct headshot with their own offensive super. Like Lyrical said, because super should counter super. Not counter it by planning in advance and using two shots of your three if you get the chance, or making sure you spot the enemy just as he's activating it and do him then, or by whatever other set of fortuitous foresight-born circumstances the other guy doesn't need to have. Because you could have been - and sometimes probably were - just as fortuitous against a Bladedancer last year. That's not the point though, when discussing the super itself. Like it wasn't last year.

No, the point is that Sunbreaker combines massive offensive lethality - those seven shots that have huge range and are always a direct one-hit kill - with a massive defence boost that means other supers can't even one-shot their assailant. Now, just looking at those numbers, at those facts - which are surely indisputable - don't you honestly think there's a bit of an, erm, imbalance there? I mean, isn't that obvious? And I mean now, not in the past. Because if there was an imbalance in the past - and if you were among those who said there was - aren't you being a little disingenuous now in trying to argue that this doesn't represent one? And calling those who've noted it - and who are pointing out that a change to the Sunbreaker's defence alone would solve it - 'whingers'?

In a sense, the game has never been fair, nor has it been one-sided. And it's neither of those things now. You could always overcome, and you could always counter, whatever the opposition used. But that's really not about balance at all - it's about skill overcoming an inherent advantage. This discussion is about that inherent advantage/disadvantage when matching super against super. Not when matching super against non-super.

Noting that the mix of offensive and defensive stats that make up a Sunbreaker super is more powerful than, say a Gunslinger's - it can put out and take more damage - isn't actually whinging. It's observation. And noting that fact, and predicting that there will be (and should be) a rebalancing to bring them more in line, is just as proper as people noting those historical imbalances of last year. It's not whinging, and it's not being blinded by past experiences. It's learning from them, and wanting to avoid the same mistakes happening over and over, by swinging an imbalance from one side to another like a pendulum. It's almost as if history repeats itself, with everyone swapping roles, yet no-one notices. But it's all there, in black and white. Odd that no-one seems bothered to read it properly.

Sunbreaker is imbalanced in respect of others' supers and is highly likely to get a small nerf to armour allow a one-shot kill from another super; fuck knows what they'll do to 'fix' the now-buggered Quiver for Hunters, but it'll be something. And then they'll introduce something new that'll imbalance things again, and so it goes.

[carlospie]

Light level 219, I need some buddies for strikes if anyone fancies playing, I'm carlospie on psn.

[Weavus]

Did I mention I wanted some PvP modes without supers? Sounds like it would solve most problems!

[Gorf King]

You did whinge about that, yes. As did I.

I'll add you, carlospie.

Ah, hold on though. You don't play as... one of them, do you?

[Lyrical Donut]

I'm not reading all of that, because I expect it's just regurgitation of the previous 2 pages of uttery misery. BUT.

No, the point is that Sunbreaker combines massive offensive lethality - those seven shots that have huge range and are always a direct one-hit kill

And so easily avoidable at range by simply jumping away. Try it.

And yes, the shotgun range was ridiculous, to the point where it made fusion rifles redundant.