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So I see you didnt make it through Calculating infinity in one sitting. You got up to about track 4 or 5 yes?

My fiver is safe :D

Heh, that's where you are wrong, I listened to it from start to finish and even listened to the 1st few tracks again when it looped over, by that point I was more than used to it :) The only bit I skipped was the silence before the "bonus track" :D

But you can keep your fiver, let me try Miss Machine and then we will talk :D

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I might well do as I'm interested in music and the concept of Mathcore seems a bit...well...Oh I give up. But Wikipedia says metal vs fusion. I quite like fusion (hell I even listen to On the Corner evry once in a while) so maybe I'll be able to get some of it. I'll try to keep an open mind but I'm a bit sceptical.

Afterall, I thought Napalm Death were a bit stoopid back in the day.

its pretty much a more aggressive, slowed down evolution of grindcore. I'd actually say the best place to start with mathcore is 'cave in - until your heart stops'. Cos while it is intense and intricate it also has groove. Converge and DEP are pretty much the most extreme examples of the (sub)genre.

Heh, that's where you are wrong, I listened to it from start to finish and even listened to the 1st few tracks again when it looped over, by that point I was more than used to it :D The only bit I skipped was the silence before the "bonus track" :D

But you can keep your fiver, let me try Miss Machine and then we will talk :)

For serious? then a deal is a deal. PM me your paypal details and i'll cough up.

As for DEP then, i guess the jury is still out on whether you like em, but can we agree that they are at least, incredible musicians?

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Personally, I think Carcass were the best old school 'grind' band that managed to keep some amazing elements of grind and forge it into some brilliant songs.

Check out 'Incarnated Solvent Abuse' for the best grind-pop song ever :rolleyes:

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all this kind of stuff seems a bit like a 'fashionable' form of grind to me... give me a good old napalm death 2 second long song any day ;)

you of course correct, but if you think just cos its new and fashionable that it's not worthy then its you who's missing out.

DEP didnt start out popular. They were pretty much completely unique in a world of Nu Metal when they started. They've fucking slogged to get where they are now.

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Someone was saying how you have to 'work hard' or something along those lines to like it. In my opinion music shouldn't be like that. It should just click. You should know on first playing if you like it.

And also, there may be a lot going on but none of it seems so to together, to me it just seems like RAWAWRASASDSAAGJWREWAEHGWJEREHRGARAEW GRARARGSAHSAHGRAR *nyaeawaeeas-bzaaangg guitars* RAAWWRDARRWRWWAWGHG

Meh, does nothing for me. Seems to me like they're trying too hard to be different and making diabolical sounding music at the same time, in my opinion of course..

If you like them, then fair doos ;)

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A band called Nile once famously stated "if you can dance to it then it ain't metal".

I disagree with that statement. Plenty of metal bands hit grooves that you can headbang, or even dance to, and a large number of them are extreme bands frex Suffocation. Nile's style is mildly chaotic, if nowhere near DEP, and they never seem to hold a groove for more than about 10 seconds (prior to their third album anyway) but to make such a blanket statement is absurd.

On a different note, I find Jane Doe easier to listen to than Calculating Infinity. B)

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Someone was saying how you have to 'work hard' or something along those lines to like it. In my opinion music shouldn't be like that. It should just click. You should know on first playing if you like it.

I know on first listen if I like a Dillinger Escape Plan/Converge etc etc track.

However, understanding it is a totally different matter.

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Anyway, to those that are interested in this type o thing both Norma Jean and Fear Before The March Of Flames have put up new tracks off soon to be released albums on their myspace pages.

The Norma Jean song hasn't impressed, for me they are all about pouding brutality and the new song really doesn't have that. Howevs, the album as a whole could be a different story.

I really like both the FBTMoF tunes they have put up, a nice advancement in sound I think.

www.myspace.com/normajean

www.myspace.com/marchofflames

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Someone was saying how you have to 'work hard' or something along those lines to like it. In my opinion music shouldn't be like that. It should just click. You should know on first playing if you like it.

And also, there may be a lot going on but none of it seems so to together, to me it just seems like RAWAWRASASDSAAGJWREWAEHGWJEREHRGARAEW GRARARGSAHSAHGRAR *nyaeawaeeas-bzaaangg guitars* RAAWWRDARRWRWWAWGHG

Meh, does nothing for me. Seems to me like they're trying too hard to be different and making diabolical sounding music at the same time, in my opinion of course..

If you like them, then fair doos ;)

I think thats a fairly ridiculous statement. You think ALL music should be immediate? As in, you dont think any bands should push boundaries ever?

Personally, I'm quite happy with the way it is now. If I want immediate theres a million bands with simple 4/4 song structures, verse chorus verse chorus instrumental, key change chorus. If I want something a bit more challenging, something to make me think about song structure and texture and composition and juxtaposition and atmosphere... then theres other bands. less immediate bands. bands whereby the rewards come over time.

I disagree with that statement. Plenty of metal bands hit grooves that you can headbang, or even dance to, and a large number of them are extreme bands frex Suffocation. Nile's style is mildly chaotic, if nowhere near DEP, and they never seem to hold a groove for more than about 10 seconds (prior to their third album anyway) but to make such a blanket statement is absurd.

On a different note, I find Jane Doe easier to listen to than Calculating Infinity. B)

Oh no dude its a totally ridiculous statement. i can even dance to DEP. it just takes a LONG time to learn how to dance to it.

I just think its a good soundbite is all ;)

And also, there may be a lot going on but none of it seems so to together, to me it just seems like RAWAWRASASDSAAGJWREWAEHGWJEREHRGARAEW GRARARGSAHSAHGRAR *nyaeawaeeas-bzaaangg guitars* RAAWWRDARRWRWWAWGHG

See thats where I think the whole 'have to work at it' comes in. A better way of putting it might be 'you need to train your ears'. you say none of it seems to be together, but that is exactly the genius of it. That is exactly WHY I get so much pleasure from it. Every member of the band will be doing their own thing, playing some insanely off beat time signature and some incredibly complex notes, when all of a sudden it'll just click together to form a massively crushing groove. its a technical showcase more than a 'catchy tune', but it also has amazing power.

Where you hear just noise, I can hear the different structures and time changes on my first listen. it takes time to pick them apart and time to learn them cos they are so complex, but on a first listen I can instantly spot the high point, the low points, the build ups and the breakdowns. because my ears are trained to this sort of music.

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No no no, I'm just saying that if you truly like something, you shouldn't have to try and like it, the idea just seems odd to me.

And I can hear the time signatures etc in DEP, but because all of them seem to be playing something totally unrelated to each other then it does nothing for me.

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No no no, I'm just saying that if you truly like something, you shouldn't have to try and like it, the idea just seems odd to me.

And I can hear the time signatures etc in DEP, but because all of them seem to be playing something totally unrelated to each other then it does nothing for me.

I dont think anyone is saying you need to try to like it. But to get a deeper understanding of the music you need to.

The fact that at times what they are playing is unrelated is part of the beauty - as has been said - because it builds into all the parts becoming related.

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No no no, I'm just saying that if you truly like something, you shouldn't have to try and like it, the idea just seems odd to me.

And I can hear the time signatures etc in DEP, but because all of them seem to be playing something totally unrelated to each other then it does nothing for me.

Oh, I dont have to try to like it. i know pretty much straight away whether I like it or not. it just takes work to fully appreciate. dont tell me there arent any bands out there who's music grows on you?

For me there is a definately a place and a need for bands like DEP. They add texture and contrast to a genre that can sometimes be completely moribund.

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Personally, I think Carcass were the best old school 'grind' band that managed to keep some amazing elements of grind and forge it into some brilliant songs.

Check out 'Incarnated Solvent Abuse' for the best grind-pop song ever ;)

o/\o

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dont tell me there arent any bands out there who's music grows on you?

There are, but for me I like it to begin with, but then after listening more I like it more. I can appreciate it from the off, but it sometimes takes time for me to like it.

I dunno, DEP seem to be trying to hard to me.

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Kerraig's name should blatantly be changed to "defender of the faith" :(

I agree with most of what he's said here. For the naysayers I'll add that I thought Dillinger were a load of crap when I first heard them too, it was far heavier than anything I'd ever bought or even listened to before and it is a bit of a shock to the system initially. It sounded like noise to me too. I don't think many people would on first listen decide that they liked the band if they hadn't listened to similar material elsewhere. I'd bought Calculating Infinity on the strength of 43% Burnt which was the accessible track on CI, When I got Miss Machine I found that "Setting Fire To Sleeping Giants" was the one to get me into that album, it took me Aaaaages to get into the last track "The Perfect Design" and that one's by far a much easier album to get into (and a better one IMO).

As has been said this is music that requires effort from the listener, not in that you need to force yourself to like it, more that you need to digest some of the changes to have the songs make sense to you. I don't think you need to understand what's happening but you do need to have visited the songs before so that you can feel the changes and the flow. I've got a pretty decent handle on Music theory but it's not like I could tell you which time signatures are being played or what the superimpositions are, I haven't studied them or paid any particular amount of attention to them, certainly not like I have done with Tool albums before. You don't need to know what they are to know that right.... NOW the song's going to kick off massively.

I don't really get the Converge are much heavier, more intense or harder work than Dillinger thing either btw, I'd prepared myself for something inpenetrable when I got Jane Doe but I don't think it's really that hard to get on with, in fact I'd say it's probably easier, for me at least because it seems much more straight forward.

I'd say that Miss Machine doesn't sound any more polished than Calculating Infinity to me, just it's a more modern sounding mix, Calculating Infinity's mix is pretty much immaculate, how that'd be perceieved as being rawer I don't personally get.

RE: Dillinger being cunts, I think it's just the singer and Ben Weinman. The bassist comes across as a nice chap, definitely.

Sorry for not quoting the relevant points but I read three pages of thread and couldn't be arsed to find the points again. If you think you've been misquoted or that I've missed the point in what you've said, the chances are I'm not responding to your point.

There are, but for me I like it to begin with, but then after listening more I like it more. I can appreciate it from the off, but it sometimes takes time for me to like it.

I dunno, DEP seem to be trying to hard to me.

I think they're trying hard too, not too hard, just to push forward with something they do with complete conviction.

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I think the reason Jane Doe is so impenetrable to me is because its so raw. the production on CI is so precise you can hear every note and its like a computer is playing at times. JD is just a filthy aggressive pissed off beast and i could see why people would say that IS just noise. Its production is much more organic and as such its sometimes hard to distinguish the complexity because it is layered in sweaty anger.

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I think the reason Jane Doe is so impenetrable to me is because its so raw. the production on CI is so precise you can hear every note and its like a computer is playing at times. JD is just a filthy aggressive pissed off beast and i could see why people would say that IS just noise. Its production is much more organic and as such its sometimes hard to distinguish the complexity because it is layered in sweaty anger.

See, I think you're calling me an idiot there. I don't think I'm missing the complexity, I do think that it's more straight forward though. I don't perceive the production as being "more organic" but I do agree it's much denser and easier to dismiss as noise though.

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See, I think you're calling me an idiot there. I don't think I'm missing the complexity, I do think that it's more straight forward though. I don't perceive the production as being "more organic" but I do agree it's much denser and easier to dismiss as noise though.

No thats not what i'm saying at all. I'm saying to the untrained ear calculating infinity gives a better example of the complexity of this genre than jane Doe, cos JD is a bit too noisy.

If you can appreciate the complexity in Jane Doe then you are actually smarter than the average bear, cos its caked in agression.

My post was about ME not being able to appreciate Jane Doe, not you. I cant get on with jane doe cos i just cant find the musicality in it. If anything i'm the idiot.

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No thats not what i'm saying at all. I'm saying to the untrained ear calculating infinity gives a better example of the complexity of this genre than jane Doe, cos JD is a bit too noisy.

If you can appreciate the complexity in Jane Doe then you are actually smarter than the average bear, cos its caked in agression.

My post was about ME not being able to appreciate Jane Doe, not you. I cant get on with jane doe cos i just cant find the musicality in it. If anything i'm the idiot.

Ah, sorry man. I guess I'm sufferring some kind of extreme sensitivity, again. :(

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