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Nick_L

By Nick_L
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the_debaser

the_debaser

Posted
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The issue with Vettel is more that in the few times he has been further back or needed to 'race' he has been found out - i don't think he has that final killer instinct that your Hamilton, Alonso, Button etc have. Vettel is a brilliant one lap driver and from the front in a quicker car does a great job. Where the above gain their fans is they all have the ability to out drive the car, to over perform in slower cars and Vettel doesn't seem to have that other than one amazing display in the rain back in the Torro Rosso.

Doesn't make him a bad driver, he is clearly one of the best out there but it makes he harder to follow when you have the others out there!

What slow car has Hamilton had in F1?

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Shimmyhill

Shimmyhill

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What slow car has Hamilton had in F1?

Every car he has driven, never been in the best car in the field yet even in the championship season the Ferrari was the better car- not suggesting he has a dog of a car each season but he has never been in a clearly better car!

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Sidewaysbob

Sidewaysbob

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The Vettel back through the field at silverstone is the only success he's had at that, and it wasn't pretty. Usually he crashes.

Okay try this........ Vettel is like Trulli (go with me here). Trulli could qualify a good car far ahead of where his team mate could, and would then fall alseep in the race to pretty much back to whereever his team mate was, or the car was capable of getting. Trulli can never go further in a race than the car was capable of getting.

Vettel, is at the front and is winning in a car that should be right there. He's out qualifying Webber easily, and webber has shown that the car can come back through the field this year. Therefore Vettel is like Trulli. Dull, and will only do what the car is capable off. He's never had to hang it all out and make a name for himself. When he tries to do that, it all gets worringly sketchy and he has a tendancy to clout drivers he's following, Button in Spa is the prime example.

Vettel will either win a race from the front row or crash.

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rafaqat

rafaqat

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Nah, I still don't think he has it to cut through the pack. Although with the tyres being the weay they are it should make it a little easier for him. Just need him to fuck it up in qualy but he isn't going to do that. :)

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Velse

Velse

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Agreed - the delight Alonso showed at qualifying 4th (or was it third) in Spain was a revelation. Actually finding that my mild irritation at Vettel's dominance is fueling a new found admiration for the not so grumpy Spaniard.

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ras el hanout

ras el hanout

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Maybe not this season because RB seem to have a comfortable lead technically, but if Vettel can take the attitude he's displayed this season into times when he has to fight from behind he'll be an absolute monster. The only thing I think is a concern is that it's not so hard to be relaxed and focussed when you're winning every race from the front of the grid and the immature Vettel that runs his teammate off the road from last year is still there. For exactly that reason the person that's most impressed me so far this season is actually Alonso, who's been really patient and sanguine about the car and now is happily putting it as far up the field as it's capable of, while Massa is floundering all over the place. Give it another two races and I'll be looking closely at what odds are being offered on Alonso for the championship.

Vettel is further ahead of webber than alonso is massa. If being ahead of your team mate is the gauge we're now using to determine how awesome a driver is. Listen, shut up, vettel's clearly the best at the moment.

But but but it's not fair vettel is always perfect in qualifying so we don't know how good he really is!! All we know is he can drive several grand prixs very fast without making a mistake.

Poor guy. He has to have a shit race in a crap car before he gets any kudos.

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wev

wev

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I do feel for Vettel, he's always displayed great pace over a single lap, that kind of driver is pretty much always going to get pole when he can just turn it on like that, from there he only really has to defend and its a bloody shame we didn't get to see him do so properly at the weekend, if Petrov and co hadn't have crashed (although I'd of been surprised if there was only one safety car period at Monaco) then we could have had something akin to Senna and Mansell in 1992 on our hands.

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britprog

britprog

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The Vettel back through the field at silverstone is the only success he's had at that, and it wasn't pretty. Usually he crashes.

Okay try this........ Vettel is like Trulli (go with me here). Trulli could qualify a good car far ahead of where his team mate could, and would then fall alseep in the race to pretty much back to whereever his team mate was, or the car was capable of getting. Trulli can never go further in a race than the car was capable of getting.

Vettel, is at the front and is winning in a car that should be right there. He's out qualifying Webber easily, and webber has shown that the car can come back through the field this year. Therefore Vettel is like Trulli. Dull, and will only do what the car is capable off. He's never had to hang it all out and make a name for himself. When he tries to do that, it all gets worringly sketchy and he has a tendancy to clout drivers he's following, Button in Spa is the prime example.

Vettel will either win a race from the front row or crash.

The drive from the back of the field was helped by a safety care if there wasn't one he would have been lucky to get any points.

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Dom B

Dom B

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Vettel is further ahead of webber than alonso is massa. If being ahead of your team mate is the gauge we're now using to determine how awesome a driver is. Listen, shut up, vettel's clearly the best at the moment.

But but but it's not fair vettel is always perfect in qualifying so we don't know how good he really is!! All we know is he can drive several grand prixs very fast without making a mistake.

Poor guy. He has to have a shit race in a crap car before he gets any kudos.

I think Vettel is having a terrific season, faultless so far and you can't do more than that. Kudos to him indeed. But re your first point there, Red Bull are racing right at the front where the points gaps are larger between positions, compared to where Ferrari are. I can't be bothered to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if you look at it on finishing positions rather than points you'll find that Alonso is actually outperforming Massa more than Vettel is Webber.

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Shimmyhill

Shimmyhill

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Poor guy. He has to have a shit race in a crap car before he gets any kudos.

That's not how it is at all, there have been many F1 champions who have won because of the car they happen to be in, its the same feeling everyone has about Vettel - even Hamilton has said he can beat him in a slower car s drivers feel the same too.

I don't think anyone is saying he is a bad driver, an average driver just not a great driver at the moment - very few will do at such an early stage of their careers bar the obviously 'other level' guys like Seaan, Schumacher, Hamilton. Lets not forget that Hamilton out qualified Alonso and beat him in the championship in his first season in the same car hence his insta-kudos. Vettel may well earn it but lets give him a go in a same pace car or even against a team mate other than 'nice guy that Webber'

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myoozikk

myoozikk

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That's exactly it. I don't think we have seen Vettel in a straight fight with an equal driver in equal machinery. Webber was beating him for a lot of last season remember. This season the red bull (so far) has been head & shoulder's above the other cars. If Vettel was in the race car & wiping the floor with Alonso or Hamilton i think we'd all be giving him kudos, but as yet i've not seen him fight. Mature, commanding drives under immense pressure, but a proper fight? No.

It's shit like this that give drivers like Hamilton such praise!!!

& shit like this that's makes people question Vettel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW5z415hH0E

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Sidewaysbob

Sidewaysbob

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I still don't know about that Turkish incident. I think Webber starts coming across him early and Vettel just doesn't think he'll run into him.

I'm prepared to give Vettel the doubt there.

Also, i do think Vettel was a worthy champion last, i have misgivings about the legality of the car, with hindsight it might all have just been down to a blown diffuser after all. But anyway, Vettel didn't choke at the last race and didn't get caught up with the Alonso/Webber fight. He did what he had to do which was win and hope the others cocked it up. That's what he did so to win the championship with a win at the last race is always the mark of a good driver.

Webber let the whole thing get to him so much so that he accused the team of hating him at one stage. Whilst Alonso was so desperate to win in the first year of his Ferrari contract he forgot that to be first, first you have to win. Vettel just kept his head down and drove.

So Vettel can do the business, he's not some lucky idiot. But he's done nothing to excite me yet, other than wave that finger around. :o

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marsh

marsh

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Face it, Vettel was as lucky as fuck this weekend and at spain a week earler. A fistfull of laps more and he'd have bagged second or third at best.

He's a one lap wonder, and until he does some majestic podium from the back of the grid without crashing his way to the front I'll not be changing my mind. You could argue that Webbers getting more out of the car cause he's having to do more with it. Easiest thing in the world to bang it on pole and keep people behind you all day.

Anyway, tv doesn't do F1 justice. As a racer, I always struggle with being behind people in the vain hope that they do what you think they're going to do and not slam on the anchors or wash wide when your in a corner. Big difference being that I'm in a wide open field on a quad doing 70mph at best, round monaco, some of those camera angles were nuts. A total headfuck. It was amazing through the chicane before the swimming pool complex.

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the_debaser

the_debaser

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Easiest thing in the world is to bang it on pole? Hmmm. How come no one else seems to be able to do it then?

Are we honestly saying in this thread that Vettel needs to deliberately lower his standards in quali to that of everyone else in the field and then beat them all to be thought of as good? Bunch of jokers!

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layten

layten

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Easiest thing in the world is to bang it on pole? Hmmm. How come no one else seems to be able to do it then?

Are we honestly saying in this thread that Vettel needs to deliberately lower his standards in quali to that of everyone else in the field and then beat them all to be thought of as good? Bunch of jokers!

No, you seem to be the only one imagining that. Nobody doubts he has plenty of skill and talent for leading a race. Surely people wondering how he would handle not sitting on the front row every race is not that much of a strange thing?

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ras el hanout

ras el hanout

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It's really strange. The idea of grand prixing is to bang it on pole and then win the race. You want him to Fuck up so you can see if he's a fiery passionate driver like alonso.

When vettel crashes he's a dunce, when Hamilton does it eight times in one race he's a racer.

You people make me literally sick.

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wev

wev

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I don't see why its so hard to understand that people question Vettel's ability to make a clean pass, he's only been in one bad car and got a win out of that but that was in ridiculously wet circumstances where he pretty much just had to keep the car on the road, it was a great drive, but no daring maneouvres involved. When he has dropped back a bit, for example a puncture (which iirc was the reason at Silverstone?) he's shunted his way through the pack. We're not talking do-or-die moves here, we're talking clean opportunities where he's not exactly worked it well.

Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAkB4-RE0P0

Pass one, Massa left the door well open.

Pass two, Schumacher knew he couldn't hold him off on the straight and (for once that season anyhow) didnt make things too hard

pass three, oh look, one touch, two touches, then through once Sutil was out of the way.

I'm not going to bring up the Button incident at Spa, that appeared to be a downforce issue that led to Vettel not having control.

And really, if anything, people want to see if Vettel can put on an amazing overtaking display, because then there will be a genuinely exciting rivalry developing between Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso with others on the field who also like to have a go such as Kobayashi, Perez and Di Resta.

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Dom B

Dom B

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Who hates Vettel? Most people seem to respect his ability (his raw pace is incredible) but would like to see him mix it in the pack a bit more to properly evaluate his racecraft. Nobody's actually expecting him to do that just to amuse us though. It's up to the other teams to make cars that can compete with the Red Bull in qualifying - and however good Vettel himself is in qualifying (flawless), his car is unquestionably better than all others on a Saturday too. That's where the frustration is.

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