Sport The Formula 1 Thread

[JPR]

Not my image, not my title.

Maldonado is the debatable one but I don't think there was really a gap with Massa. I don't think he turned into him, he was just doing what he needed to do to get around the tightest corner in F1, he also had Webber on the outside, who Hamilton knocked Massa into. From the picture it looks pretty tight to get around the corner even without a car on the outside.

3rd this week and 8th in the fantasy league, my tactic of picking and doing nothing for the rest of the season seems to be working out so far.

[roskelld]

What I see there is Maldonado making two defensive moves, he travels from the right hand barrier to the left and then pulls back toward the right. It's harder to confirm in a place like Monaco because of the track, but to me he was slower and very close to, if no, weaving to defend his position. I might be wrong because the chicane is very slight there and I'm not sure how that affects the 'single direction change defence' rule. I think Hamilton could have braked and saved the collision, yet I don't think it's as clean cut as him getting frustrated and barging his way through.

[Paradigm]

Hamilton didn't knock Massa into Webber at all, Massa failed to brake adequately. You can see from the picture you've posted that Hamilton has full lock on. Irrespective of it being a tight corner there is more than one line, you can use the whole of the kerb there and if you can get your front wheel that far alongside your nearest competitor than it is clearly an overtaking opportunity. Massa simply didn't want to brake or change line, both things you sometimes have to do when you're being overtaken.

[exwhyzed]

Maldonado holds the same line and Hamilton doesn't get near enough to even make a challenge. It's a half hearted overtake, Hamilton doesn't brake late enough to get in the space but not early enough to get out of it.

[Shimmyhill]

I think with the Massa one you have to think what Massa is like when being passed, he gives up early and lets people through pretty easily - i think Hamilton was simply expecting Massa to lift once he saw him up the inside. Maldonado was defi a legit move, lewis had a run up the inside but they both kept their foot in so was always going to be an accident if Maldonado didn't lift.

The McLaren seems a bit stronger this year, last seasons car would have fallen apart on either accident!

[roskelld]

Here's Hamilton's pass on Massa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CVDLBqdpwg

[JPR]

Hamilton doesn't have anywhere near full lock in the picture. From the on-board to me it looks like Hamilton pushes Massa out wide barely making it around the corner, and he does catch Webber.

[wev]

Massa definetly caught Webber as there was carbon fibre from the front right of Massa's car everywhere.

[Paradigm]

He did but Lewis Hamilton didn't use his magic bumping device to push him into him, especially as he was clearly braking at the time. And yes, he's clearly on full lock, look at his glove! It's bloody vertical!

[exwhyzed]

Lewis should have backed out.

[wev]

He did but Lewis Hamilton didn't use his magic bumping device to push him into him, especially as he was clearly braking at the time. And yes, he's clearly on full lock, look at his glove! It's bloody vertical!

Oh yeah, I don't think Hamilton pushed him into Webber, but I do think it wasn't really Massa who should have yielded, he didn't really have anywhere to go.

[roskelld]

If you look at the take Hamilton put on Schumacher, it's a similar situation to both the other two. This is Monaco, you put your car in there and if the other driver doesn't accept the situation, then there's going to be carnage. It's the classic Senna style of over take.

Hamilton gets up along side Schumacher, and leaves Schumacher a choice: Stick with it and come out the other side, a carbon fibre bits bag, or pull over and accept defeat, but live to see another day.

EDIT:

There's a fine line between reckless and skilled in these situations and Monaco is the track to show it off in spades.

[morcs]

It actually looks like Schumi had the presence of mind to spin the rear wheels to avoid the barrier as he headed towards it!

[exwhyzed]

See the difference there is Hamilton is up along side Schumacher. Not half a car back.

[Paradigm]

If you look at the take Hamilton put on Schumacher, it's a similar situation to both the other two. This is Monaco, you put your car in there and if the other driver doesn't accept the situation, then there's going to be carnage. It's the classic Senna style of over take.

Absolutely bang on. The overtake on Schumacher was exactly the same level of aggression. Either you penalise everything or you penalise nothing.

That picture of Maldonado above is just a mite selective, if you spool it back a few hundredths of a second there's a big door.

As for yielding to Massa... he had 3/4 of the track, he didn't have to turn in. The outside line on that hairpin is perfectly valid as it gives you the inside line on the next corner.

See the difference there is Hamilton is up along side Schumacher. Not half a car back.

He really isn't, he's just mega aggressive and pushes through on the inside. It is no different.

Everyone moans about lack of 'racing' in F1, minute someone does it it's time for the stewards. Make your minds up.

[wev]

As for yielding to Massa... he had 3/4 of the track, he didn't have to turn in. The outside line on that hairpin is perfectly valid as it gives you the inside line on the next corner.

As they turn into the corner Massa has Webber at his front right, Hamilton at his rear left, he couldn't take the outside line, but couldn't back out of the situation really, Hamilton's car was poorly placed.

[Paradigm]

As they turn into the corner Massa has Webber at his front right, Hamilton at his rear left, he couldn't take the outside line, but couldn't back out of the situation really, Hamilton's car was poorly placed.

Why is Hamilton's car any more poorly placed than Webber's, using your logic? He could have followed Webber's car round, which he chose not to. He decided on taking the inside line, which involved turning in from his original position. You can see in the first picture that Hamilton has asserted that he is coming down the inside as much as Webber has shown he's going down the outside. Massa then switches from the outside to the inside. That is Massa's poor decision making, something we see again when he punts it into the wall. MassaLOL.

[exwhyzed]

Hamilton gets up along side Schumacher, and leaves Schumacher a choice: Stick with it and come out the other side, a carbon fibre bits bag, or pull over and accept defeat, but live to see another day.

If a Hamilton gives Maldonado that choice and Maldonado chooses to turn in Lewis only has himself to blame for the collision. You can't give someone a 50/50 choice and cry when they make the decision you don't like.

You can quite easily say Maldonado posed the choice to Hamilton of back out or crash and Hamilton chose wrong.

[JPR]

Everyone moans about lack of 'racing' in F1, minute someone does it it's time for the stewards. Make your minds up.

That's rubbish though and seemingly the attitude Hamilton has taken to, also plenty of people can race and overtake without hitting people. As an aside it annoys me that seemingly only overtaking is racing, I was really enjoying Vettel/Alonso/Button being line astern looking for places to make moves etc.

On the lock, at the point in my picture Hamilton isn't at full lock, the wheels have over 180° of movement that they use in the corner.

[exwhyzed]

That is Massa's poor decision making, something we see again when he punts it into the wall. MassaLOL.

yes Massa decided to punt it into the wall

[wev]

Why is Hamilton's car any more poorly placed than Webber's, using your logic? He could have followed Webber's car round, which he chose not to. He decided on taking the inside line, which involved turning in from his original position. You can see in the first picture that Hamilton has asserted that he is coming down the inside as much as Webber has shown he's going down the outside. Massa then switches from the outside to the inside. That is Massa's poor decision making, something we see again when he punts it into the wall. MassaLOL.

I read it as Webber braked too hard and Massa moved to the right to avoid punting it into the back of the Red Bull, Hamilton had perhaps commited to a move by then, but really, if you're going to make an attempt you need to make sure you have a way out.

I'd be happy to go with "racing incident" rather than anything that should be punished, I do think the Maldonado one was punishable with the main reason being that it finished the Colombians race and that was no real fault of his own. Massa's race wasn't ended at that corner and there's no conclusive proof that being sandwhiched between Webber and Hamilton caused sufficient damage that would result in him hitting the wall in the tunnel.

[Paradigm]

yes Massa decided to punt it into the wall

He chose the wrong line trying to keep up with a faster car instead of just having his own race - and then paid the price for it. His accident was nobody's fault but his own. The cause was exactly the same as why he moved inside on the hairpin: ego, not wanting to let a faster driving get by you whatever the cost.

These kinds of overtakes are far more common in various GT championships, DTM, touring cars, etc. Minute it's F1 everyone becomes really precious and they start dishing out punishments arbitrarily, without bothering to look at those who hold others up, selective weaving, etc.

[Velse]

If a Hamilton gives Maldonado that choice and Maldonado chooses to turn in Lewis only has himself to blame for the collision. You can't give someone a 50/50 choice and cry when they make the decision you don't like.

You can quite easily say Maldonado posed the choice to Hamilton of back out or crash and Hamilton chose wrong.

Well given that Hamilton finished 6th and Maldonado didn't finish, I'd still say Maldonado chose wrong.

Ultimately as people have said, at Monaco you can either dare people to crash into you or you can follow people round and hope for the best. Personally I enjoyed Kobayashi & Hamilton's performances and would rather they were left to it.

[morcs]

These kinds of overtakes are far more common in various GT championships, DTM, touring cars, etc.

Difference there is obvious though

[wev]

Kobayashi was involved in one accident, that he appeared to try and back out of when he realised it just wasn't going to happen.

[Paradigm]

Difference there is obvious though

There isn't a difference, they're all regulated by the FIA and rules should apply consistently. People come through various feeder series, it's inconsistent to say "yes, that kind of overtaking is fine in DTM but you're not allowed to do it in F1". Just look at Di Resta's performance. You're encouraged to have a go in other series, in F1 everyone throws their toys out of the pram if you challenge the established racers or people who believe they hold sway.

[exwhyzed]

He chose the wrong line trying to keep up with a faster car instead of just having his own race - and then paid the price for it. His accident was nobody's fault but his own. The cause was exactly the same as why he moved inside on the hairpin: ego, not wanting to let a faster driving get by you whatever the cost.

So slower drivers should just move over and not fight? I can't see why he slowed so much got on the marbles in the tunnel, he claims it was because he couldn't get the car to turn in after the damage.. Obviously we'll never know.

Well given that Hamilton finished 6th and Maldonado didn't finish, I'd still say Maldonado chose wrong.

I'm talking about who is wrong for causing the crash. Whatever driver has their race ruined is completely down to luck. Hamilton didn't go into that corner that knowing he'd come off fine and Maldonado into the wall.

[myoozikk]

What did I miss?

[wev]

What did I miss?

More than Hamilton

[myoozikk]

Like other people, I'd rather see Lewis drive like a mad man than watch journeymen tootle around the track. Senna comparisons are on point for me.

As for another Vettel win zzzzzzzzzz