Sport The Formula 1 Thread

[Shimmyhill]

I'm torn with the Senna thing. I appreciate he was a brillent driver and one of the very best i saw racing. But to me the crash at Suzuka has tainted anything he did. I just can't forgive him crashing into Prost deliberatly, for a driver that was so great he couldn't just beat Prost driving, he had to crash into him.

Because that led to things like Schumacher being able to crash into Hill and ayone else that got in his way. It made it acceptabel to be agressive and be a cock for a long time.

I know ot's not a popular view, but there you go. Senna isn't as heroic as some one like Mansell who got there by grit and english pluck. Or Massa who almost died and missed out by one corner on the last lap of the season. They never had to drive anyone of fthe circuit to win a race or championship. Hakkinon too is a nice bloke that beat Schumacher fair and square.

Perhaps not a popular view, but one I agree with. I mean, okay, Prost did purposefully nerf Senna off at the chicane the year before, but that was at slow speed into a chicane with no one following. Driving into the side of a car at a flat-out first corner with 24 cars going at over 140mph directly behind you was borderline insanity.

Senna had this strange contrast of on one hand being highly religious and caring (his charity work, his actions when he came across Eric Comas and Pedro Lamy's crashes during Spa practice in 1992 and 1993) and on the other being utterly ruthless to the point where he would risk his and someone else's life if it meant winning.

I think this is it, Prost cut him up and refused to admit it and then there was the farce over the banning of Senna after an incredible drive to win the race and keep the championship over - the history between them always seems to mark Prost as the innocent party but he was to blame many times before Senna took him out. Also remember that the Pole position spot was changed to the dirty side and Senna protested it many many times but it was over ruled by the pro Prost head of FIA.

I dont doubt Senna was prepared to drive him off but Prost turned into him and could easily have backed out, the whole episode was always going to end that way and i never get why Senna is seem to hold total blame for it - FIA caused the opportunity and Prost was willing to turn into Senna so there is no one blameless in it.

Prost annoys the hell out of me, dirty racer who won championships by being in the best car with total and unsporting support from a French head of FIA.

The quali where Senna out qualified Prost by 2 sec in the same car just shows the genius of Senna, i always think of Schumacher in the Prost vein - talented drivers but more system players who demanded the most of the team and FIA than utter genius behind the wheel aal Fangio, Clark and Senna.

The copy of "Senna" that's out there looks like a rough cut. Loads of abrupt music cut-offs, and audio levels all over the place betweens scenes. Think I'll wait.

I got the dvd one and was spot on.

Cant wait to see it in the cinema!

[kiroquai]

An interesting video of the drivers meeting prior to the 1990 Japanese Grand Prix. Shows Senna was obviously very agitated.

[wev]

Anyone got any decent subs to the Senna movie. The one I'm watching, the Monaco '84 interview's subs don't appear until after the race during an interview where's talking in English...

[makkuwata]

Anyone got any decent subs to the Senna movie. The one I'm watching, the Monaco '84 interview's subs don't appear until after the race during an interview where's talking in English...

These are a massive improvement on the ones that came with my demonoid BRrip

[wev]

Oddly, they're the ones I have. I've checked the file itself in Wordpad and where the interview starts at around 4 minutes or so, the subtitles don't appear until about 6 minutes, after the race has finished.

[Sidewaysbob]

I absolutly agree that Prost is just as much to blame for that crash. Also that the FIA had it's part to play, mostly it was Balestro being a cunt.

But i come back to the fact that Senna said he wasn't going to let Prost get away and would crash if it came to it. There was premeditation there and that's what disapoints me. IF Senna had complained about the swap of pole. Gone out and then raced Prost off the circuit or even refused to race, i'd have worshiped him. But he didn't, he felt the only way to make his point was to not even try to make the corner. And as pointed out It wasn't only his and Prosts life he put in danger, there were the rest of the drivers behind him.

Prost and Senna were a moment in time. Whilst Alonso and Hamilton might not like each other too much, i can't imagine them crashing into each other at the start of the race to stop the other from winning. I think they know that they're better than than. Webber or Vettel could have crashed into Alonso last year to win the title, but neither felt the need to, i think that's the difference today.

Saying that Hamilton does rather worship Senna, so you never know

Schumacher is just a cheating German thug though and is still trying to kill Barrichello.

[Shimmyhill]

You raise a good point BUT....

I think the only reason that they wouldn't crash into each other is the rules would no doubt punish them - back then there was no punishment and the FIA were actually corrupt, handing a championship to Prost by a French president who invoked a rule only on Senna and not other drivers that broke the rule on the same race or even in the same season!

Schumacher was allowed to take Hill out but that was the end of that ability as even the Baron found he couldn't drive into people anymore - i don't think drivers today are more honest racers, above it or not willing to put others lives into jeopardy i think they simply know the rules will stop them after the race!

Vettel or Webber had a better car in an era with vastly better reliability, neither of them were anywhere near a situation where taking someone out was a viable option - Alonso lost the championship IMO and as much as i dislike Vettel im glad Alonso didnt win it due to dirty team tactics - i would have prefered Webber won it as he isnt the best driver out there but is a decent chap and at least has a go unlike 'i'm only good in the best car with no one in front of me Vettel' And while i say that its much the same for Mansell, plucky Brit who was never the best driver and won it via the best car - still love him and pleased he won a title but he will never be up there with the true legends.

But i think i just love Sennas win at all cost mentality, i smashed a badminton racket on a wall after cocking up a point - you dont think these things through often (hard to play with a smashed racket had i not been disqualified anyway) and its that passion in Senna that probably elevate him in my eyes!

[SharkyOB]

But i think i just love Sennas win at all cost mentality, i smashed a badminton racket on a wall after cocking up a point - you dont think these things through often (hard to play with a smashed racket had i not been disqualified anyway) and its that passion in Senna that probably elevate him in my eyes!

One man's passion is another man's 'just losing your temper and stamping your foot like a toddler'

The situation in Suzuka was nothing like that anyway, Senna basically announced he was going to cause a crash into the first corner, so it wasn't a red mist moment or anything.

[kiroquai]

There has been no-one else, neither before nor after, who has come close to his pure and natural driving talent

I see your Senna and match you with my own personal hero .

[Dudley]

Jeeeez why did I just YouTube this... Eeeep!

As far as I'm concerned it should be required viewing for anyone remotely in motorsports.

If that doesn't make you respect the "Motor racing is dangerous" logo then very little will.

[mexos]

Official UK release date is June i believe.

JUNE?! I can't wait that long!

[kimble]

I saw the Senna film a couple of weeks ago at a screening at Working Title and thought it was very good but extremely one sided. It had to be in order to get commissioned and to get the Senna family on side and access to the archives. The portrayal of Prost is very harsh and there were a lot of key omissions from the story that led to the animosity. Namely the breaking of the overtaking agreement and Senna squeezing Prost into the wall at Estoril. Watch lap 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zznJjSncGCE

The relationship changed after that. Before the first Suzuka crash Prost had stated that he was no longer going to stand for Senna's aggressive tactics and he would close the door on him if he tried more of his aggressive lunges.

I also didn't appreciate the portrayal of Prost as being slightly cowardly. Prost was a far more risky and flamboyant driver early in his career but after the de-angelis death he was so shook up the only way he could continue was by dialling back the risk. Senna had never really witnessed Death in F1 until Imola and you can see the impact it had on him in the film. For Prost to 'tame' his driving and still achieve 4 WDC and top the wins board until MSC arrival shows the level of talent he had.

The movie makes Senna appear to just be a racer that was always wronged by the establishment but Senna was just as manipulative as anyone, he very much created that mysterious aura. Just as Senna did what was required to de-throne Prost, Schumacher did the same to Senna.

[Sidewaysbob]

That's how i feel, people have forgotten that Senna was at times a very dangerious driver. All they refere to is this great driver taken too early.

Yes there were moments like Donington and he was the all time greatest driver at that special qualifying lap. But there were occasions when he'd lose it and risk not only his but others lives.

[Cheeko]

When were Senna's peak years? I followed F1 back in those days but I don't really remember it very well, after watching that video of Senna moving from 4th to 1st and heard so many familiar names in the commentary I looked up the 1993 F1 season, Senna got well and truly trounced by Prost that year.

So many retirements though!

[kiroquai]

Ah, and also Prost had an insane car advantage in 1993. Senna had no right to get that McLaren anywhere near the Williams cars, but he somehow managed it often enough.

As for his peak... hard to say. I'd say all through his McLaren years he was pretty much at his peak, so 1988 through to 1993 really.

[Sidewaysbob]

Yeah The McLaren years.

though he did get the Lotus to places it should never have gone.

[JohnC]

I managed to fool iPlayer into letting me watch The Killer Years. I knew there were quite a few deaths, but I didn't realise how bad the whole thing was. It was pretty grim. First it was like nobody cared. And then when they did care, it was still ametuer hour. Someone mentioned it already, but the massive focus on Lotus did seem strange.

Some of those early wings were a bit rubbish looking. I'd seen pictures of the massive rear wings up really high with thin supports, but hadn't seen the similar front wings before. It was a bit comical.

[Fargo]

Er guys, can someone help me out with 'acquiring' Senna? I don't know which torrent to go for; PM me if you don't want to post here.

Same as the above it anyone can help.

[Snowman]

I managed to fool iPlayer into letting me watch The Killer Years. I knew there were quite a few deaths, but I didn't realise how bad the whole thing was.

Same here. That documentary was incredibly eye-opening. Watching all those horrific accidents and the interviews with family members and colleagues of the deceased was really quite upsetting, especially in the case of Jackie Stewart. The mixture of anger and sadness in his voice was just... And the bit at the end with Roger Williamson and David Purley was absolutely appalling.

My one minor complaint about the programme was the subtitle which struck me as cynical, attention-grabbing bullshit.

[Dudley]

When were Senna's peak years? I followed F1 back in those days but I don't really remember it very well, after watching that video of Senna moving from 4th to 1st and heard so many familiar names in the commentary I looked up the 1993 F1 season, Senna got well and truly trounced by Prost that year.

In the same way as Liuzzi got "trounced" by Vettel last race.

McLaren weren't just running Ford V8s, they were running customer Ford V8s in a car designed with a Chrysler/Lamborghini V12 in mind. Benetton had the good Fords.

[myoozikk]

it looks good if you do go for that one BTW.

[JohnC]

Same here. That documentary was incredibly eye-opening. Watching all those horrific accidents and the interviews with family members and colleagues of the deceased was really quite upsetting, especially in the case of Jackie Stewart. The mixture of anger and sadness in his voice was just... And the bit at the end with Roger Williamson and David Purley was absolutely appalling.

Purley looked so unbelievably frustrated. It was horrible.

[marsh]

In the same way as Liuzzi got "trounced" by Vettel last race.

McLaren weren't just running Ford V8s, they were running customer Ford V8s in a car designed with a Chrysler/Lamborghini V12 in mind. Benetton had the good Fords.

Fuck me he was immense that year in a car that was piss slow, and to this day I suspect Mr Schumacher had a big hand in making sure that the customer Fords were all he could get for as long as possible. He really did push that car hard, I think it was Imola where he dropped it comming out of the last hairpin that still sticks in my mind, trying to extract every last pony out of that car to get it on pole.

Looking back on that year, the only question I have is, why the fuck did they sign Andretti? He was shocking. The years that followed for the team were some of their worst.

[makkuwata]

Purley looked so unbelievably frustrated. It was horrible.

Indeed. Compare and contrast the marshall's response to Berger's crash in 89.

16 seconds from impact to get there. 10 more to put the fire out.

It's not like there was some new technology invented in the intervening years that made the difference. Cars and fire extinguishers. Back racing within a month.

[marsh]

Indeed. Compare and contrast the marshall's response to Berger's crash in 89.

16 seconds from impact to get there. 10 more to put the fire out.

It's not like there was some new technology invented in the intervening years that made the difference. Cars and fire extinguishers. Back racing within a month.

And they were still a little bit shit even back then.

Sid Watkins book is a fine read.

[myoozikk]

Senna movie... I'm going in!!!

[myoozikk]

God Jean-Marie Balestre comes across as a total cunt in this & Bernie's autobiography.

Whatever version I'm watching is defo an early cut as I'm at 1.40mins with about 1hour to go.

Imdb lists the entire film at 1.40.

[myoozikk]

I'd maybe wait. What I was watching was overly long. Very interesting but I stopped watching at 1.40 & there weren't even close to imola & the aftermath.

I'd rather catch the rest of it properly at the May screening.

But I have no doubt the final product will be electric!

[Sidewaysbob]

Wasn't Andretti the current Indy car world champ at the time. He was certainly the beat of the American new bloods at the time. When mansell went over there and won the series at the first go, everyone there realised indycar needed to change or die. Hence the IRL split a few years later.

[kiroquai]

Purley looked so unbelievably frustrated. It was horrible.

Awful, wasn't it. There's this picture that really sums it all up.

Marshalling has come a long, long way since then, as has track safety, although even up until 1986 there was no proper marshalling at tests. When de Angelis crashed at Paul Ricard that year Mansell and Prost had to run from the pits to the scene of the accident along with Bernie Ecclestone and Gordon Murray, all in t-shirts and shorts, and try to help him as there were no marshals around to help.

I visited the Donington Museum a few years ago and what with the (late) circuit owner Tom Wheatcroft being Roger's manager, there're a few of his cars and a rather impressive statue of him to see. Real shame, as reading the The Lost Generation and reading snippets from people around the internet most think that Williamson (and Pryce, and particularly Brise) were all far better drivers than James Hunt, and all three could have genuinely become champions. Instead they were all gone within the space of four years.

Plus, this wasn't the only heroic thing David Purley did - sounds like the guy was a real character. Was in the army in the parachute regiment too, and also survived a 179g crash at Silverstone in 1977. In his comeback drive about 18 months later (he'd suffered multiple leg, arm, pelvis and rib fractures) he came home fourth, drove into the paddock and sat there whilst everyone stood around him applauding. He soaked it in, beckoned his mechanic over and said 'er, could you wheel me around the back of the truck where no one can see? I can't actually move and I need you to lift me out of the car'.

A fine, fine man .