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The Formula 1 Thread

Nick_L

By Nick_L
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myoozikk

myoozikk

Posted
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from another fourm...

For a while now, people have been wondering exactly what McLaren's technical boffins have been up to with the design of the MP4-26, which had no immediately-apparent exhaust outlets. Where rumours of Renault's exhaust solution broke just hours after the car launch, it would appear that Woking have been even trickier than Enstone.

Scuttlebutt suggests that McLaren have managed to find a loophole in the regulations that allows them to have mutiple exhaust outlets. The exhaust moves from the engine to a ceramic "box" behind the gearbox, which then splits off into several smaller tubes that route the exhaust gasses across the whole diffuser, thus applying the concept of an exhaust-blown diffuser to the car by cleverly stepping around it.

Spinning out from this is the suggestion that McLaren's lack of pace has nothing to do with an absence downforce. Rather, the suggestion has been that the tubes used in the ceramic box - known as the "Octopus" - are too small and too long. They are supposedly deforming when exposed to the incredible heat of the exhaust, and they cannot handle the strain of forces exerted on them. If this is indeed true and McLaren can engineer a solution, the the MP4-26 could be incredibly competitive. If not, then the entire car will be compromised because an alternative solution will be needed and planned upgrades will be rendered useless.

I stress this is all just rumour right now, but if it's true, then I can see the FIA banning it at the end of the year. Or sooner if Ferrari complain about it.

Part of the problem is that McLaren apparently wanted to use material called "pyrosic" to manufacture the exhaust systems. It's a next-generation lightweight alloy that can easily withstand the kind of high temperatures produced by superheated exhaust fumes. But the FIA has apparently said no, and put pyrosic on the list of banned materials (most of which - like beryllium alloys used in engine manufacture in the late 1990s - seem to have been found by McLaren), because it could cost as much as twenty thousand Euros for a single exhaust manifold. While it has obvious benefits, it's simply too expensive in its current state to be used.

And a deforming exhaust could easily cost McLaren a second. Each of the exhaust outlets would be blowing exhaust gases over a particular area of the diffuser in a particular manner. If those outlets are deforming with the heat, then their profile is changing. If their profile is changing, the exhaust is hitting the diffuser in a different manner to what was intended. The effect is magnified because the entire diffuser is exposed to the exhaust gas bousing off it at the wrong vector. This will alter the rear-end aero dramatically - so much so that McLaren are lucky they've only lost a second.

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mexos

mexos

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Here's my guess. Mclaren flirting with the top 8-12 places till June. Then they get it working & start fucking some sweet stallion ass till the end of the season & miss out by a handful of points nly because the season ended a race too early.

:sherlock::unsure::coffee:

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Dom B

Dom B

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they were running a conventional exhaust as well. So MAY not be the end of the world.

My guess is they were only running the conventional exhaust for comparison purposes, ie to evaluate the relative benefit of this rumoured ceramic 'octopus' box blowing exhaust through the diffuser compared to cold air.

And then the rules on materials were 'clarified' and they spent the rest of the tests trying legal materials to acheive the same effect and presumably failing, leading to overheating and deformation and unpredictable results from the diffuser.

So, I very much doubt the back end is designed to work optimally with conventional exhausts and they have a big re-think on their hands.

Compounding the issue is the lack of testing available going forward - any failed attempt on a Friday practice that results in a melted rear-end is going to cost them a whole weekend.

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myoozikk

myoozikk

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One wonders why this was suddenly "clarified" so late in the day. McLaren usually chat to Whiting (as do all of the teams) as they go along so I doubt they've designed this whole thing on the off-chance that the FIA / scrutineers would accept it at the first race.

It smacks of inter-team politics...

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Paradigm

Paradigm

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It's bizarre that F1 even has a 'banned materials' list. I appreciate there are regs to stop the cars being ridiculously sticky/powerful but new materials technology is about the only thing that trickles down to road cars. It's fantastic for innovation.

Bunch of twats.

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roskelld

roskelld

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All this McLaren business has been giving me some deep thought about my Fantasy team. I'd prefer to not have too many drivers in my line up that I don't like. I was hoping that I'd just have Alonso in there as a way of finding comfort should he perform well. However with this McLaren speculation I'm juggling back and forth between keeping Button or going for Vettel.

I suppose if I go for Vettel, then like Alonso if he does well then they'll be a silver lining on it for me, and if Button or McLaren do well then I'll be happy anyway.

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Dudley

Dudley

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Not a £20,000 a manifold it doesn't ;)

I love the boffins at Mclaren. Newey may have the mind of a super computer to design a very fast car. But Mclaren can design the bat shit mental stuff, that's really simple when you realize what they've done.

$20000 today. $5 in 10 years, new stuff is always more expensive.

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JPR

JPR

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It's bizarre that F1 even has a 'banned materials' list. I appreciate there are regs to stop the cars being ridiculously sticky/powerful but new materials technology is about the only thing that trickles down to road cars. It's fantastic for innovation.

Bunch of twats.

I can't remember if it was introduced before McLaren and Beryllium but that's the first time I remember it being mentioned. It's not just that these materials can be very expensive, which Beryllium still is (video below says €15,000 for a small sample) but also dangerous to work with. Beryllium is really poisonous and just breathing in a small amount of dust with it can be harmful (worth watching for the hair.)

It does seem as if Pyrosic was already banned anyway under 15.1.1 in the Tech regs and according to Scarbs it was actually Ferrari who asked if they could use it but told it wasn't allowed. What's the use of having Todt as the head of the FIA if he doesn't do you favours like this. ;)

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kiroquai

kiroquai

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This McLaren exhaust speculation is fascinating :sherlock: - this is the kind of stuff that makes me love the sport so much.

Hope they can get some solution sorted for it, as it'd be a bit gutting if Mercedes have sorted their game out this year only for McLaren to drop back. An 8-way title fight would be pretty sweet :).

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Paradigm

Paradigm

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True, only yesterday I was in halfords trying to chose between the inkernel cylinder liners or the titanium racing exhaust for the old civic. Decisions, decisions.

;)

But you can buy aftermarket exhausts from OEM racing providers no hassle at a lot cheaper than they used to be that will in some cases probably last longer than your car. Your tyres grip harder and last longer thanks to motorsport. Your brakes stop you better and last longer thanks to motorsport. Your engine lasts longer thanks to lubrication developed from motorsport. You can buy better quality petrol close to what is used in motorsport. Those are just the obvious consumables. The way we think about safety in cars/crash structures has in part been due to motorsport. Extensive use of aluminium in road cars is common now and that comes from motorsport - with materials you're talking about them being tested in F1/similar at levels beyond normal car use and worked in ways that are new, so there's decades of experience in working with these materials that all comes down to production cars.

20 years ago it took 3,000 hours to make a McLaren F1 chassis, it now takes 4 hours for the MP4-12C. Progress is very quick and with CFRP derivatives now being made by more and more specialists there is more competition and ever-increasing efficiency in how it's made. Plastics and F1 construction are quite obviously how road cars will eventually go, BMW's new i range - which will be mainstream cars - are going to be based around a CFRP cell, with the benefits being obvious not only in its safety but how light and eco-friendly it is. At the moment there is a massive drive for efficiency in road cars and where do we turn to for lessons in innovation, new materials and cutting weight? How about a motorsport that has been carbon neutral since 1997?

We'll have gone from technology the preserve of $1m supercars to being an option ticked by company car buyers (over 50% of all new car sales) in less than two decades. If you don't think that's progress than you are barking mad.

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Cheeko

Cheeko

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Exactly, it all points to McLaren being completely fucked for the season; if indeed it is all true. Thing is, if the system is that expensive to produce, why the fuck did they go ahead with it knowing that FIA would frown upon it when they're looking to cut costs? Given their previous history with the FIA, McLaren must have know that it was very very big risk to take.

Bending the rules and taking these risks are what wins you a championship these days, last 2 seasons were won by a double defuser and a flexing front wing(McLaren also were only in the running due to the vent the drivers plugged with their knee on the straights), these are things that seemingly contravened the guidelines and could've gotten banned but were allowed.

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myoozikk

myoozikk

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Bending the rules and taking these risks are what wins you a championship these days, last 2 seasons were won by a double defuser and a flexing front wing(McLaren also were only in the running due to the vent the drivers plugged with their knee on the straights), these are things that seemingly contravened the guidelines and could've gotten banned but were allowed.

exactly, it's innovation. Every team is searching for the golden bullet that makes their car the fastest. The rest of the teams then chase as best they can.

Like Cheeko says the last season have all been won by the team's that had that season's must have innovation. DDF, F-ducts, Blown diffusers, Flexi wings etc.

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kiroquai

kiroquai

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Plus, McLaren built probably the most famous over-reaching cars of the past few years in the MP4-18. Some of the design elements on that were years ahead of their time (such as a fully blown diffuser) - it didn't work at all but I admired just how radical the thing was and how willing they were to do it.

Kind of wish I'd been around during the Chapman Lotus years, too. The whole progression of the ground effect concept from the Lotus 78 to the completely nuts Lotus 80 has always been something I've found really interesting to read about.

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myoozikk

myoozikk

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After reading the Bernie book i never realised how big & deep the gap is between Bernie, Max & Ron Dennis. Like they really hated each other. I know it's meant to be a new era, but i can't help thinking the powers that be & Ferrari are always trying to fuck over Mclaren.

:conspiracytheoryhat:

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