Sport The Formula 1 Thread

[dan_tm]

I'm not wanting to sound like some sort of Hamilton lover now, but I just remembered that pit-lane incident...

They were both released at almost the same time, so it's not the fault of either team really, and especially not the fault of the drivers themselves (as they rely 100% on the lollypop man to make the call). The only debatable thing is whether they acted dangerously by going through side-by-side, I'd say it was dangerous and Hamilton should have dropped back behind the other driver, but it was also dangerous by Vettel to try and 'force' Hamilton into making the choice of slowing down or weaving into the wheel gun cables.

As we're all football F1 fans now, you could say it was six of one and half-a-dozen of the other, they were probably both fouling each other and it wasn't anyone's fault in particular, so just let them get on with it.

So yeah, the right move from the FIA for once IMO.

[MrPogo]

I'm sure Hamilton would have gotten a penalty if Vettel hadn't swerved back over, as they wouldn't want to punish both of them (though I can't find the actual wording of the rules for it on the bloody website. Maybe he got away on a technicality by being slightly behind Vettel, thus not "released into his path"!).

[CouldBeWorse]

With Rosberg in second overall with a respectable 50 points, it got me thinking. Has a driver ever won (or at least come very near) the championship without a winning a race? Just wondering.

[Halo]

Webber is underrated in those odds

Probably, but half the reason for that is because Vettel's odds are so low. I really can't imagine Webber winning the championship.

[McSpeed]

With Rosberg in second overall with a respectable 50 points, it got me thinking. Has a driver ever won (or at least come very near) the championship without a winning a race? Just wondering.

His dad (ironically) won the title with just one victory during one season in the eighties, I think that's the lowest amount ever.

[marsh]

It's simple really, Hamilton = Senna, Button = Prost.

I await fisticuffs and shenanigans come suzuka this year*.

*Or not as I think they're off to Fuji.

[merman]

You really think Webber is better than Vettel?

LOL

fucking LOL at Webber being better than Vettel...

My current red bull hate dislike come from Vettel's stupid number 1 finger and Christian Horner coming across as a very cocky bastard. There is no bought they are an awesome team and Vettel is a stunning driver.

Four pages later...

My point is this. Vettel has pace in a fast car, yes. But if you were to put Webber and Vettel in one of the back row cars, Webber would come out on top. And over the course of their careers I reckon Webber will score more points/finishes than Vettel.

[myoozikk]

sorry, but any excuse to post this again...

[yt]Be3-J9XtJCw[/yt]

and Vettel's chocolate finger...

[merman]

I'm sure Hamilton would have gotten a penalty if Vettel hadn't swerved back over, as they wouldn't want to punish both of them (though I can't find the actual wording of the rules for it on the bloody website. Maybe he got away on a technicality by being slightly behind Vettel, thus not "released into his path"!).

I'm sure Hamilton would have got a penalty if Max Mosley had still been in charge... with the ex-drivers (Alex Wurz this past weekend) advising the stewards, these sort of incidents have been better handled this year.

[Hackign]

I don't see what Hamilton or Vettel did wrong. Then again I'm of the opinion that racing should happen at every part of the race. Wheels should be touching, front wings should be as close to the front car as possible etc etc.

I'm old school me.

[Monbee]

Four pages later...

My point is this. Vettel has pace in a fast car, yes. But if you were to put Webber and Vettel in one of the back row cars, Webber would come out on top. And over the course of their careers I reckon Webber will score more points/finishes than Vettel.

In 2007 Vettel raced in half the grand prix, and scored 6 points. Webber raced in all of them and scored 10 points.

In his first full season, 2008, he came 8th in the WDC. Webber came 11th.

Both seasons he was in the Toro Rosso to Webber's Red Bull.

Also, Webber has 197 career points so far (from 144 races), to Vettel's 170 from 47 races. I think he'll catch him up.

[Sidewaysbob]

Webber is too erratic, and he whinges more than Alonso.

[Bruciebabie]

Webber is underrated in those odds

Impossible to under-rate Webber. A very average journeyman who lucked into the fastest car on the grid for two seasons and who then proceeded to fail to deliver.

Put Quick Nick or Kubica in that RBR and you would have double the points.

Webber is getting the sack and moving on to driver management. Kimi is getting that seat next year, then we will see Vettel blown into the weeds.

[tyler]

With Rosberg in second overall with a respectable 50 points, it got me thinking. Has a driver ever won (or at least come very near) the championship without a winning a race? Just wondering.

Wasn't the whole reason for changing the points to encourage drivers (not that they needed it) to try and win more races? That worked well.

[Bruciebabie]

Four pages later...

My point is this. Vettel has pace in a fast car, yes. But if you were to put Webber and Vettel in one of the back row cars, Webber would come out on top. And over the course of their careers I reckon Webber will score more points/finishes than Vettel.

Blimey, have you looked at the stats?

Vettel will get 10 times Webber's points total if he drives with his handbrake on.

Webber has lucked into very few points over a fairly long career. Vettel, for all his imperfections, is still one of the top talents out there.

Vettel has the potential to be a WDC. Webber has consistently proven to be a very long way from this.

Webber is just Trulli with an Aussie attitude.

[morcs]

Yeah because Webber's odds have nothing to do with the car he driv...

[myoozikk]

i agree with Bruce.

Back in a bit, i need to go and clean myself with bleach!

[Bruciebabie]

I'd rather watch Hamilton spanking a car from 10th to 2nd. Than Button sneaking past people as they pit.

But that must just be my "Football mentality" whatever the fuck that means.

jesus, no one else winds me more than Brucie. Genius.

Since Hamilton has entered F1 I think you will find that Button has overtaken more people on track.

Formula One is about scoring points. Button achieves this by being a fully rounded driver with all the skills. He can be wickedly fast, as we saw on Sunday and as his 3-1 qualifying advantage over Hamilton shows. And he does this whilst being very light on the machine and the tyres. Also he very rarely makes a mistake. Look at his Wikipedia and see how outstanding he was before F1. Far more so than Hamilton or just about anyone else.

Hamilton makes lots and lots of mistakes, which is presumably what you like. He drives very loosely, but that is not ultimately fast as taking tyres sideways scrubs off speed. Button's smooth and balanced style is both far more difficult to achieve and far faster. Hamilton also has sudden fits of mindless aggression which gets him into all sorts of trouble. He is a huge amount short of being the complete driver.

[myoozikk]

i think the way you view it is how you look at the sport.

Are you entertained by perfect driving, hitting every apex and making it look effortless,

or

are you entertained by crashed, banzai overtakes and crazyness...

me personally i'm the latter so LOVE watching Hamilton, but i also can see why people enjoy the other kind of thing and find Button more entertaining.

Horses for courses. I'm just happy my 2 fav drivers are on my fav team and they are having a decent season so far.

[morcs]

taking tyres sideways scrubs off speed

Over-simplification, as mentioned before there is an optimu...

[Hackign]

They should have had a post race race from China to Spain. First one to get there without use of any planes wins.

[Bruciebabie]

Over-simplification, as mentioned before there is an optimu...

Ho hum.

Any tyre has a maximum cornering force. This is achieved at a very small slip angle. (And varies from tyre to tyre).

The key to F1 is getting round the corners fast. To do this means having all four tyres at maximum cornering force throughout the corner. This is achieved by the set up of the car and the skill of the driver. Most F1 drivers cannot do it, they dial in a bit of oversteer (Hamilton) or understeer (Alonso) to help them balance the car. However this sacrifices ultimate speed because if one end of the car is delivering maximum grip at the perfect grip angle then, by definition, the other end isn't.

Very, very few drivers are capable of holding an F1 car perfectly balanced with all four tyres delivering maximum cornering force throughout an entire bend, never mind an entire race. It is a deft skill of delicacy and precision. Kimi has it, and Button. Both these drivers are simply breathtaking to watch, they are achieving the almost impossible. Sometimes, especially on very fast corners, you can see a very gentle and slight yaw in the car, like a small vibration. This is the driver balancing it right on the very edge of available grip.

The problem for both these drivers that their craft requires a well set up car. Achieve that and you get the mastery that Button demonstrated on Sunday, a virtuoso performance simply walking away from the world's best drivers. For much of last season Brawn could not get their car set up properly for Button, it was interesting to see his efforts to drive round this and maximise his points in adversity.

Hamilton has some great skills. He is probably the best natural racer currently in F1. He never says die, he always goes for it and he is brave. (Almost as brave as Kimi, who seems to genuinely have Sisu in his veins instead of blood). Hamilton also has stupendous car control, this is how he can outbrake people, drive round the outside of them on bends and get a bad car to outperform.

[myoozikk]

jesus i agree with Bruce again. It must be the ash in the air or something.

[morcs]

That assumes that the car can be perfectly neutral in all situations. That's the ultimate goal of the engineer, but in reality when you consider different cornering (aero) speeds and weight transfer due to braking/accelerating, bumps, brake balance, tyre temperature and all the rest of it - it's not that simple.

In short, the quickest setup will still have the car tending to oversteer in some situations and understeer in others.

Would be simpler if the circuit was a perfect circle though!

[Dudley]

Personally I'd have black flagged Hamilton on the spot, I don't care what the situation, he was the guy driving on part of the pit lane you don't drive of, in a place where he's massively endangering other people's pit crews, he should have dropped behind Vettel and used the correct, single file lane.

I'm all for excitement but it comes secondary to not wiping out another team's pit crew because you fucked up exiting the pit and are having a strop.

[morcs]

Black flag's a bit harsh! He couldn't get off the blue at first because Vettel's car was in the way. I agree that he should have dropped back (which he did in the end), but that's not an automatic response. You need thinking time to do that. The worst thing Hamilton did was raise his hand at Vettel, that won't win him any friends!

[marsh]

I'll have some of what Bruce has been smoking.

Walked away from the field? lay off the crack trumpet dude

[Bruciebabie]

That assumes that the car can be perfectly neutral in all situations. That's the ultimate goal of the engineer, but in reality when you consider different cornering (aero) speeds and weight transfer due to braking/accelerating, bumps, brake balance, tyre temperature and all the rest of it - it's not that simple.

This is the joy of watching Button/Kimi. Something upsets the balance, a gust of wind, a bump, whatever. They get it back in balance at a phenomenal speed.

In short, the quickest setup will still have the car tending to oversteer in some situations and understeer in others.

Obviously, but Button/Kimi absolutely minimise this. Watch the in car.

Would be simpler if the circuit was a perfect circle though!

Which is the genius of these two drivers (and others in history). You or I could eventually balance a well set up car in a perfect circle. These guys do it in highly changeable conditions at 200 mph whilst pulling lots of G.

I enjoy watching all the drivers, their weaknesses and strengths, how their careers develop, how their personality is reflected in their driving. With my posts here I have just been trying to express this.

Hamilton as a racer and his car control are sometimes edge of the seat stuff. Kubica outperforms and makes no mistakes. Petrov is simply outstanding for a rookie, makes a lot of the veterans look silly. A big star for the future and perhaps a bigger talent than Vettel. But I miss Kimi a lot. His bravery, sisu, nonchalance, wicked sense of humour and sheer eye watering speed. In terms of outright speed round a circuit he is faster than anyone in F1 this year. In a RBR next year he could be difficult for the others to keep up with, until the damn thing breaks.

[Bruciebabie]

I'll have some of what Bruce has been smoking.

Walked away from the field? lay off the crack trumpet dude

iirc He was 50 seconds ahead at the first safety car.

Then started from scratch and was a further 20 seconds ahead by the second safety car.

At the end he had total control of the race. Going just slow enough to keep Hamilton at a safe distance whilst being super gentle on his car.

No safety cars and he would have lapped the entire field, including Hamilton. It was an imperious display rarely seen in F1. Go watch the forum, Brundle and Coulthard were flabbergasted.

You can't let your support for one driver or another blind you from the facts.

[JPR]

Not sure how much it can really tell you, as there are so many things to take into consideration for an overtake, but I was interested to see how the number of Hamilton overtakes compares to Button.

2007

Source

Hamilton: 16

Button: 17

2008

Hamilton: 20

Button: 7

Couldn't find anything already done for these so I went through the lap charts on the FIA site. I excluded the first lap and pit stops, but they are a rough figure. If any overtakes where made due to drivers going wide or slowed with a mechanical problem they would be included, unlike in the other data.

2009

Hamilton: 23

Button: 12

Source

2010

Hamilton: 25

Button: 3

Source

Totals

Hamilton: 84 (64 Excluding 2008)

Button: 39 (32 Excluding 2008)