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The Formula 1 Thread

Nick_L

By Nick_L
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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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I'd say Teflonso is the best current driver, but only just. He did get shown up by a rookie in his first year, no excuse even if he is Big Ron's golden boy.

DC is very interesting on this issue.

Basically RD had a favourite and ignores the other side of the garage.

Mikka was a favourite as was Kimmi and as was Lewis.

DC says it is not very good being effectively the number 2 as he was. And as Alonso was.

Now Alonso says he has no issues with Lewis. You could see their friendliness in the Japanese GP parade lap.

Alonso says his issue was with the team. Much as what DC says.

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morcs

morcs

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DC is very interesting on this issue.

Basically RD had a favourite and ignores the other side of the garage.

Yeah Coulthard openly said that he was gratified to see the problems Alonso was having, as it mirrored the situation he felt he was in.

You did say "easily, by far, no competition though", if that was the case shouldn't Alonso have been able to beat Hamilton regardless?

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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You'll have to concede then that your previous statement (to paraphrase): "Button is quicker than Hamilton because he oversteers less" is in error, otherwise you'd also have to conclude that Button is quicker than Kimi. (You mentioned that Kimi "prefers oversteer").

To be fair the statement is valid in the general case where we're talking about drivers learning to go quick. There's a tendency to over drive which feels faster because there's more action going on. As you get closer and closer to the ideal though it becomes less clear cut, and it turns out that tyres usually work at their best when they're dancing somewhere just over the limit, somewhere only the best drivers can hold them.

Of course the amount depends on tyre compound, temperature, which will depend on the car setup, so it's almost impossible to really say who is quickest independent of car and situation.

The "best" driver is the one who wins the championsip. Where "best" is a combination of skill, luck, and all the other variables.

Kimi likes an oversteering car, but he doesn't let it oversteer! Not visibly anyhow.

He uses the oversteer to give him a sharp turn in, to make the car pointy. Then once the car is loaded up and the back tries to edge out he uses his amazing car control to stop it.

Just watch and you will see what I mean.

Here he bosses Spa (with chicane understeer thrown in!)

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Sidewaysbob

Sidewaysbob

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My problem with Alonso has always been he is a petulant driver. who can't deal with a team mate who is as good or better than he is.

Yes he got side lined at Mclaren, but i think because he was difficult and a bad man manager. He wasn't high fiving his mechanicals and coming to the factory every other day. He just turned up at the Gp and told them to get their act together.

Now, he did turn Mclaren from and almost just there team (with Kimi and Montoya) into a championship winning team. He bucked their ideas up and gave them that extra edge. I will also go online and say that if he had been at Mclaren this year, the car would have been sorted sooner.

He is a bloody good driver, be he is fatily flawed i'm affraid. He is a petulant, cry baby he get's rattled by team mates that push him. He was a 2 times world champion when he arrived at Mclaren and he SHOULD have blown lewis, a rookie to F1 remember, out of the park.

But he didn't, and he got more and more arsey as the season went on. Culminating with Hungary where he threw a hugh hissy fit and blocked Lewis from entering the pit box. Then in America where he cut across the start finish line to wave his fist at the pit wall. Schumacher and Senna never had to throw their toys out of tghe pram. (okay senna drove into prost and Schumacher drop into hill and Villeniurve but still) they got on and won the championships.

They didn't go whinging to the media and started spreading rumours about team mates smelling of old ladies and fish.

Alonso is bloody good, but he isn't the complete package and he's too quite to start pointing the finger and telling eveyone it isn't fair.

However, Hamilton, Kimi, Alonso, and Massa are all brilliant on their day, You feel that if any of them are 4th or better than they can win. That they'll always try and wina nd not accept what they've got. So, i think, they are the best of the current crop. On any given day any of them can string a race winning weekend together and entertain.

Drivers like Trulli and Webber and Kovalainen are just journey men.

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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Remember that Alonso threw his toys out of the pram in Hungary because Hamilton was disobeying team orders and had obstructed Alonso on the track to prevent him getting a good qualifying time.

All this "petulant" Alonso stuff is straight out of the English popular press. He brought a lot to McLaren, honed their car to make it the best in the field, and they treated him badly.

Hamilton wasn't really your average rookie. He had been groomed for this since birth, no other new F1 driver in history was as well prepared. He started racing when he was still in nappies and had a complete racing career behind him before he ever got into an F1 car. It also helps that Lewis is by far the best "racer" of this generation of drivers. There is far, far more to being an F1 driver than being a "racer" as Lewis proved for us when he beached it in China, but he certainly brings entertainment to the sport.

Overall I think that we are supremely lucky just now, this is the best grid full of drivers ever in the history of the sport. Other than Hamilton, Kimi, Alonso, and Massa we also have the developing genius of Vettel, the alround skill of Kubica, the under-rated speed and precision of Heidfeld. The speed, smoothness and mastery of the wet of Button. The potential of Sutil and O'glock. The one lap charges of Trulli and Webber.

Fantastic times.

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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Another very important thing to remember in F1 is that different drivers prefer a car to behave in different ways and if you have two drivers in a team whose requirements differ then you can't please both of them when developing the suspension, aero, brakes etc.

When Alonso came to McLaren he preferred an understeering car. He had won two WDCs in an understeering car. And McLaren gave him an oversteering car. Now it just so happens that Lewis, his team mate, preferrs an oversteering car, so was at a massive advantage. It is to the credit of the genius of Alonso that he got such good results out of a car that was unsuited to his driving style.

Likewise at Ferrari the last few years. They make understeering cars because that is what Schumacher wanted. It is in their DNA now. Massa loves this, it is what he wants in a car and he has been groomed by Schumacher to make the most of it. Kimi likes a car that oversteers, this is why he looked so much better in a McLaren than he does in the Ferrari. But Kimi is a genius and he still won the WDC in a car that didn't suit him.

You can see where this is going. Next year we will have Alonso and Massa in Ferraris. They both love understeering cars and they will both have one. Then if Kimi goes to McLaren we will have two drivers in the same team who like oversteering cars. Interesting times lie ahead.

And it is not just oversteer and understeer. Button and Rubens both use the brakes completely differently. The brake setup they had at the beginning of the season favoured the driving style of Button. However mid season they completely changed the braking system in the Brawn and the new system favours Rubens. So the change of brakes changed the whole team dynamics.

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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You are quite mad.

Kubica was leading the WDC last year till they stopped developing the car.

And people complain about overtaking in F1, well just watch Quick Nick in this video:

The problem is that the TV cameras, the journalists and many fans just concentrate on the drivers at the front. But often the drivers at the front are only there because they have better cars. There are just as good drivers further down the field who just happen to be in less good cars. The problem with Quick Nick is that he has never been in a really good car.

However he makes places in nearly every race he is in.

He never makes a mistake and has a phenomenal record for getting his car home and finishing virtually every race he starts. (He holds the F1 record of 41 consecutive finishes).

And he is awesome in the wet. Just look at the results of wet weather races over the last few years.

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Sidewaysbob

Sidewaysbob

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I'm yet to be convinced by Kubica. Whilst he did lead the WDC, it was because he was the best of the rest that year, He never really looked like wining any races, and only took Canada when Hamilton crashed into Kimi and the rest. Up to that point Hamilton was crusing to an easy win.

He is consistant, but dioes he have that extra drive that takes drivers to the top spot. He seemed to give up and criuse round for the points a little readily for me. But he'll be in the renault next year, who may well pull out after next year anyway, so well see how he goes. Renault are a fading team, but unlike BMW they have a grid slot for next year :lol:

In other news, VW are being rumoured to be about to buy one of the current teams.

"Hello..... Hello .. is that Frank, hi yeah... great to talk to you ... listen... we have something that might interest you ... have you driven an Audi recently ....... ?"

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mexos

mexos

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There is far, far more to being an F1 driver than being a "racer" as Lewis proved for us when he beached it in China, but he certainly brings entertainment to the sport.

Overall I think that we are supremely lucky just now, this is the best grid full of drivers ever in the history of the sport. Other than Hamilton, Kimi, Alonso, and Massa we also have the developing genius of Vettel, the alround skill of Kubica, the under-rated speed and precision of Heidfeld. The speed, smoothness and mastery of the wet of Button. The potential of Sutil and O'glock. The one lap charges of Trulli and Webber.

Fantastic times.

On tyres that were so worn you could see the liner. He should have been brought in 4 laps earlier.

Your right about this being a good crop of drivers - it has a 80's feel about - so many top ones all racing each other in decent machinery.

senna_prost_mansell_piquet.jpg

Love that pic :lol:

Not sure about putting 'quick' nick in there though. :angry:

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marsh

marsh

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Posted
On tyres that were so worn you could see the liner. He should have been brought in 4 laps earlier.

Your right about this being a good crop of drivers - it has a 80's feel about - so many top ones all racing each other in decent machinery.

senna_prost_mansell_piquet.jpg

Love that pic :lol:

Not sure about putting 'quick' nick in there though. :angry:

Great days, you just wonder where Prost had hidden the knife he wanted to give to Senna. Probably up his left nostril.

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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On tyres that were so worn you could see the liner. He should have been brought in 4 laps earlier.

Precisely my point.

Alonso would have come in for fresh rubber having weighed up all the possibilities, permutations and options.

The racer in Hamilton stopped him from coming in.

As an aside Lewis is far less hard on his tyres than he was.

I think that the loss of T/C forced him to change his style quite a bit.

The far heavier cars next year will be a further challenge for him if he doesn't want to be at a disadvantage to the smoother drivers.

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mexos

mexos

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Precisely my point.

Alonso would have come in for fresh rubber having weighed up all the possibilities, permutations and options.

The racer in Hamilton stopped him from coming in.

Err, the team told him to stay out. They took the blame squarely after the race for the call, I remember the interview with Whitmarsh.

Remember too that it happened in his rookie year. Not sure many drivers of so little experience would go against their bosses orders so early in their career - especially with the events of Hungary in recent memory and with the added pressure of having a championship in the palm of your hand. Had that event happened to day - with the extra experience he now has I'm pretty sure he would have demanded to stop.

The comparison between Hamilton the rookie, and Alonso the double world champion at the time isn't a fair one.

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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more the fact their pulling up of sports car racing.

Could they be about to bring a Diesel V8 to the party ?

The problem, as Le Mans has proved, is coming up with an equivalency formula that is fair to different fuels.

The ACO have been fiddling away but they haven't made it work.

F1 rules define the fuel very tightly indeed and diesel does not meet the current definitions!

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