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The Formula 1 Thread

Nick_L

By Nick_L
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SharkyOB

SharkyOB

Posted
Posted

Exactly, he just seemed to give up in the race and then go crying to the press about how his race was ruined, whereas the other party who was arguably worse affected by the outcome of the incident finished fifth. To me it's what happens when you find yourself in these situations that defines you as a driver and I don't think Massa's got it any more. I think if Ferrari didn't feel guilty/partially responsibly for his accident he would have been gone a while back. To be the team they want to be they need two drivers who will push and fight every lap of every race.

Why would Ferrari feel partially responsible for bits falling off other team's cars?

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Dudley

Dudley

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Whenever there's a safety car it really spices things up as it bunches the cars together again, I think they should have mandatory safety cars at the midpoint in the race.

You'd love Nascar.

Oh and I think they should allow cars to line up in race order behind the safety car too, those back markers between Vettel and Button really robbed us of some excitement.

No, it didn't. Vettel (or whomever is leading) already lost huge distance through no fault of his own, his opponents shouldn't get a free ride past slower cars he passed as WELL.

I'd support a return to the original Indy 500 full cause caution system. If you were 10 seconds ahead when the yellow came out, you will be when it goes in too. The safety car is not there for fun, it's to neutralise the race to allow someone, possibly injured to be safely removed. It's not a device to artificially spice up races and it should advantage no-one.

Bonus points, in my scenario Alonso would have one fewer win.

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

Posted
Posted

To be an F1 driver requires hundreds of different skills and nobody is best at all of them. Keeping a wet tyre cool on a drying track is a different skill to attacking as the safety car pits.

Then there is the fact that all F1 drivers are on a continuing learning curve. This year there are Pirelli tyres, DRS, KERS and the Indian circuit to take on board. It is visible that some drivers adapt faster than others. It is also visible that Hamilton has learned a lot from Button about tyre preservation.

On current form the best two drivers must be Alonso and Button. That Ferrari is a terrible car that won't put heat into its tyres. Alonso is driving round this problem and is getting the car into positions it really shouldn't be capable of getting into. Also as ever he maintains pace over race distance. His big weakness, as ever, is unforced errors.

Button just now is more determined than I have ever seen him before in his whole racing career. He is determined to win every race and on current form he is by far the best overtaker in F1. In changeable conditions he is uniquely brilliant and can be whole seconds per lap faster than the rest of the field, something that is very difficult to explain. Also he is kinder on tyres, brakes and fuel consumption tham most. His weakness has been Saturdays and he knows it, so in Singapore he really couldn't have done any better. Adrian Newey owns the front row. It will be interesting to see if he can maintain such outstanding form for the rest of the season and into next season. Certainly McLaren have built a car to suit his driving style.

McLaren have lost a huge number of points over the last two seasons because of team cock ups. More than all the other teams put together. Ron has OCD so must be pulling his remaining hair out in frustration. I think this is why they have recruited Sam Michael as Sporting Director. His job will be to install discipline and to stop them making so many cock ups.

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Sidewaysbob

Sidewaysbob

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Alonso only ever had one team mate good enough to beat him and that was Hamilton. Massa, like all the others is no threat to Alonso so he's not going to get fired any time soon.

Massa is throwing a fit because it's dawning on him that Alonso and Ferrari regard him as a harmless little toy that can tool round and pick up points.

this is what Ferrari had to say about the race...

Stefano Domenicali: "The result itself is not a surprise, but the performance definitely was, and in a bad way. We were slower than we expected and we must carefully analyse the reasons why things turned out this way. It will be a useful exercise for the coming races and also when looking to the future. Fernando did his best, staying in the hunt for a podium finish right to the end and he is still definitely in the running for second place in the Drivers' Championship. Felipe could also have been up there with him, but his race was ruined by the puncture caused by Hamilton: our Brazilian is definitely having an unlucky time of it at the moment and yet again, as in Monza, he had to fight his way back up the order through no fault of his own. Now we must roll up our sleeves and maintain our motivation for the remaining races of this season, in which our aim has to remain the same, namely to try and win some races. At the same time, we must learn as much as possible about the behaviour of this car, to apply the lessons to the one that is currently at the design stage."

Apart from saying it was Hamiltons fault which no one disputes... He's not really sticking up for his man there is he. Where's the blood and thunder the "Hamilton is dangerious and should be banned like Massa says" it's all about Alonso not being quick enough but still getting points.

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The Bag

The Bag

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Why would Ferrari feel partially responsible for bits falling off other team's cars?

I phrased that poorly. What I mean is he was in their car, driving for them when he had a very serious accident. I think it's not in any doubt the accident is responsible for his drop off in form. I think they feel responsible for him and believe he'll come back to his precious form or don't want to be seen as arseholes for dropping him when he was nearly killed driving for them. Whatever the reason I don't think his current form is good enough to keep that seat.

He's still a fast and skilful driver and there have been flashes of the old Massa this season but only a few. He seems to have lost his racing edge, his killer instinct if you will, and seems content to drift home in the lower half of the points. I like Massa but I don't like this Massa, I want the Massa that fights past people, races for position not the Massa that complains to the press about how his race was ruined, not the Massa content to bring it in with a few points.

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JPR

JPR

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I like Massa and would have loved to see him get a championship with Ferrari and you have to admire the way he's come back after being a fraction away from his carer and maybe worse being over. But I think he's got to the point where he and Ferrari would probably benefit if he moved on. I think it's a similar situation to Barrichello, where it seems a combination of things, the pressure of being a Ferrari driver, having a more dominant team mate on track and in the garage seem to start to get to them. Ruben's Performances started to drop off and then towards the end he just seemed to give up, I thought for a few years before he really needed to move on and you'd have to say it's been great for him.

I think Massa could be at this point and a fresh team and challenge could be really good for him and if he his I hope he doesn't stay on for too long as Rubens did, wasn't nice to see. Replace Webber with him and I'd see him winning races again and bit of bad luck for Vettel he could finally get that title. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though, if he came back next season like his old self with some great performances and wins, hopefully Ferrari will have the car to do it as well.

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Cheeko

Cheeko

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No, it didn't. Vettel (or whomever is leading) already lost huge distance through no fault of his own, his opponents shouldn't get a free ride past slower cars he passed as WELL.

You know that sports like F1 exist as entertainment right? It's not about free rides or whose fault it is. By your thinking surely we need to get rid of DRS too as that's just a free ride for the person behind, but DRS has proven(when used in the right areas, I'm not saying it's ideal on every track just yet but it is only the first year), to be a real asset to the sport.

I'd support a return to the original Indy 500 full cause caution system. If you were 10 seconds ahead when the yellow came out, you will be when it goes in too. The safety car is not there for fun, it's to neutralise the race to allow someone, possibly injured to be safely removed. It's not a device to artificially spice up races and it should advantage no-one.

Why can't it be both?

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wev

wev

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You know that sports like F1 exist as entertainment right? It's not about free rides or whose fault it is. By your thinking surely we need to get rid of DRS too as that's just a free ride for the person behind, but DRS has proven(when used in the right areas, I'm not saying it's ideal on every track just yet but it is only the first year), to be a real asset to the sport.

And part of that entertainment was seeing Button chase down Vettel and watching them both deal with the 2 Williams cars and a Torro Rosso.

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dayte

dayte

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What a blinder of an evening. We had full view of the fastest straight and the Hamilton collision happened right below us. The sound was absolutely insane. Full view of the fireworks too. It was pretty awesome having a couple of TV's just inside the room so after everyone had come past you could nip inside and watch the rest of the race.

Ah so it wasn't you, near the end of the race the footage panned across the pit straight for a glance of a Double O lookalike

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dayte

dayte

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In general for Massa, if you look at his career in detail, it has effectively been ruined by Hamilton, ever since he finished 2nd in the world championship back in 08 by 1 point. Note that he would have been the first Brazilian world champion since Senna, and as a result untold fame and legendary status. Instead it's been downhill since that season, playing second fiddle to a better driver and not even picking up the scraps Alonso throws. He's held a grudge with Hamilton since, so when he comes along screwing up his race, all that resentment from yesteryear comes flooding back. It's not about any one race incident, Massa is thinking in terms of his whole career wrecked. It's not an exaggeration to say that he hates Hamilton, proper I will stab you if I can get away with it hate.

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kiroquai

kiroquai

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I think they generally get on okay; Massa's problems to my mind are a) he's never got his edge back after his accident (understandably) and b) he's the second driver in a one driver team. I like him - like Brucie said, I felt he dealt with the disappointment of Interlagos 08 in a really dignified manner.

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Wools

Wools

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That was one of the dullest races this year but like Canada, seeing Button reduce the gap to Vettell lap by lap was brilliant. I was hoping that he could get behind him and Vettell have another wobble under the pressure, but the traffic put a stop to that.

Was it Coulthard that called this a modern classic and Schumacher called this track a new Monaco? :facepalm:

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SeanR

SeanR

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I think they generally get on okay; Massa's problems to my mind are a) he's never got his edge back after his accident (understandably) and b) he's the second driver in a one driver team. I like him - like Brucie said, I felt he dealt with the disappointment of Interlagos 08 in a really dignified manner.

shame about the rest of the team

owneed.gif

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Cheeko

Cheeko

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And part of that entertainment was seeing Button chase down Vettel and watching them both deal with the 2 Williams cars and a Torro Rosso.

Yeah, watching world class drivers stumbling over back markers and the guy in second chasing down a nigh on hopeless victory against a guy who can pull out 8 seconds in a couple of laps because he had the slowest cars on the track holding the opposition back. Really entertaining :rolleyes:

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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Replace Webber with him and I'd see him winning races again and bit of bad luck for Vettel he could finally get that title.

Maybe Massa would burst the Vettel bubble.

When I hear EJ go on and on with superlatives about Vettel it makes me want to cringe. So far all Vettel has proved is that he is better than Webber. Put Massa in a Newey car and it would be a different game.

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reani_

reani_

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Maybe Massa would burst the Vettel bubble.

When I hear EJ go on and on with superlatives about Vettel it makes me want to cringe. So far all Vettel has proved is that he is better than Webber. Put Massa in a Newey car and it would be a different game.

So you've not just been off the forum, you also have been banned from watching any F1 races? :)

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SharkyOB

SharkyOB

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Massa has always been an inconsistent driver - brilliant at one race and then useless at the next. He's now in a car which is behind the pace of the Red Bulls, McLarens and sometimes the Mercedes too, and is performing at about the level of the car.

He probably lost pace after his accident but I don't think he's ever been that great tbh. Good, but not great.

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Dudley

Dudley

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You know that sports like F1 exist as entertainment right? It's not about free rides or whose fault it is. By your thinking surely we need to get rid of DRS too as that's just a free ride for the person behind, but DRS has proven(when used in the right areas, I'm not saying it's ideal on every track just yet but it is only the first year), to be a real asset to the sport.

I think you'd get a debate on that. Plus you can avoid DRS ever being an issue by simply staying more than 1 second ahead. Unless you're an entire lap ahead a safety car could fuck you at any time.

Why can't it be both?

Creating a situation where people hope for serious accidents is not something I'm inclined to support.

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Bruciebabie

Bruciebabie

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So you've not just been off the forum, you also have been banned from watching any F1 races? :)

I have watched just about every F1 race since well before Massa was born. I have even been lucky enough to chat extensively to a couple of F1 drivers and downstairs here I have a signed autobiography of one of them. Plus a DFV piston used by Alan Jones and a couple of 312t gearbox cogs.

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