Are Dvds Too Small For True Next-gen Gaming?

[Eighthours]

This article on the issue has popped up on the web, and a few sites have started linking to it.

Food for thought? Microsoft apologist? You decide!

http://www.gamesfirst.com/index.php?id=1132

Much debate has gone into whether or not the DVD9 format is too small for next generation titles. Looking over the data, it's fairly evident that in fact DVD9 is not too small for next generation games as much as it was too big for the last generation's. Very few games on the original Xbox came close to pushing the limits of the DVD9 format, leaving plenty of room for growth for the Xbox 360.

Undoubtedly, games will grow. However, technology designed to keep them small and compact will grow as well. In many ways, the debate over Microsoft's handling of the DVD9 and HDDVD formats is simply a matter of a red herring. People see it and worry about it, but there is little data to suggest there will actually be a problem with it.

The PS3 will be able to store more data with their blu-ray discs, but that won't necessarily mean that they'll be any less limited in their creativity. It might simply give developers more room to be sloppy in their programing.

Read the whole text in the link, and see what you think. Is Blu-Ray necessary for stuff other than masses of FMV, or are DVDs enough?

[MK-1601]

640k should be enough for anybody.

[Monkichi 3.0]

The biggest Xbox game I can think of was Madden 06 which clocked in at nearly 6 Gigs. Most games are around 2 to 3, with some being as low as 600MB.

[FooAtari]

640k should be enough for anybody.

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Seriosuly though, I havent really been able to see much of a problem so far...

I cant read the article just now, the sites if blocked at work

will check it out tonight

[PaB]

I expect multi disc games to start hitting the 360 before the end of its lifespan.

Either way, I don't it as being a problem - a pain maybe, but not anything that would make you think " I'm not buying that" We have all dealt with multi disc games at some point.

[Monkichi 3.0]

I expect multi disc games to start hitting the 360 before the end of its lifespan.

Either way, I don't it as being a problem - a pain maybe, but not anything that would make you think " I'm not buying that" We have all dealt with multi disc games at some point.

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It depends on the game doesn't it? It would be shit (And unlikely) if PGR4 forced you to change discs dependingon which car and track you chose, but it would be ok if an RPG made you use disc 2 from a certain point onwards.

[PaB]

It depends on the game doesn't it? It would be shit (And unlikely) if PGR4 forced you to change discs dependingon which car and track you chose, but it would be ok if an RPG made you use disc 2 from a certain point onwards.

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Well yes - But I doubt it will affect "action" games. It's only going to be the likes of RPG's etc that will need the extra space. If you look back at say, the DC, it was only the likes of Shenmue, RE:CV, Skies of Arcadia etc, that required more than one disc.

[Sprite Machine]

640k should be enough for anybody.

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And your sig deserves another:

[MK-1601]

The examples given in the article are completely ridiculous.

'If a console has a top limit to its storage, developers will make games that fit that storage' is circular logic. When you've only got to feed a poxy 24-64mb of system memory (this gen), of course the maximum amount of useful storage will be small.

But what if Rockstar want to make a GTA game that doesn't have PS1-quality textures and 22khz mono dialogue? What if someone wants to make an RPG or adventure that uses a lot of hi-def FMV (and yes, FMV=bad, but consider games like Psychonauts where it's used a lot simply due to time and budget constraints). Or an Elder Scrolls game where every character doesn't use a mirrored texture. High res textures, 5.1 sound, HD video and increasingly complex environments eat space voraciously.

Compression isn't suddenly going to improve by an order of magnitude, we're already using very aggressive compression whereever we can.

Of course there isn't some magic number for how large a game has to be on disc for it to be 'good' or 'properly next gen', but I can't see many developers voluntarily choosing to have this millstone around their necks for the next five years, unless they're planning to make X360 exclusive games only.

[SeanR]

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[Sprite Machine]

Weren't both GT4 and San An pushing the limit of a dual layer disc.

I remember reading so in press releases before the games came out, like they were boasting.

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MGS: Substance was too, I believe.

[Sprite Machine]

The PS3 will be able to store more data with their blu-ray discs, but that won't necessarily mean that they'll be any less limited in their creativity. It might simply give developers more room to be sloppy in their programing.

OH NOES!

Who cares? If a game is large because it's sloppy, but the media can store it anyway, what does it matter? For the end user, it makes no difference if the game is sloppily using all the space of a large disc, or efficiently using all the space of a small disc. In fact, if it takes longer to make a game work on a smaller disc, I'd rather have the bloated inefficient one, thanks.

[Eighthours]

Weren't both GT4 and San An pushing the limit of a dual layer disc.

I remember reading so in press releases before the games came out, like they were boasting.

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Yes, yet amusingly San Andreas fits on a single-layer disc. The claims were bollocks.

[Capp]

Its not going to be a major problem for a long while yet. 9 Gigs is a lot of space to fill. There are also other issues to consider, compression for example. As an example, this gen very few games used mp3 for the audio....this obviously meant a huge amount of space on the disk was given over to the music tracks (especially on something like GTA, although whether that game compressed the music I don't know). On the new consoles there is so much power that spending a very small amount of it decompressing data is pretty much a no brainer. If any game I was working on was running out of storage on a 9 gig disk, then I would start asking some serious questions as to why.

[frumious]

The PS3 will be able to store more data with their blu-ray discs, but that won't necessarily mean that they'll be any less limited in their creativity. It might simply give developers more room to be sloppy in their programing.

OH NOES!

Who cares? If a game is large because it's sloppy, but the media can store it anyway, what does it matter? For the end user, it makes no difference if the game is sloppily using all the space of a large disc, or efficiently using all the space of a small disc. In fact, if it takes longer to make a game work on a smaller disc, I'd rather have the bloated inefficient one, thanks.

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Especially if they've squeezed it on in such a way that data takes longer to load because the machine has to jump through various hoops to get it all in a useable form.

Of course, the flip side of that if it's mainly to do with compression, is that disc access might be slower than the decompression, so compressing everything could result in shorter loading times.

[TehStu]

I've never understood the need for Blu-ray. Alright, consoles have finally caught up with PC on the resolution and texture detail department. Now, granted PC games may be a bit slimmer in video and pomp, but they seem to manage weighing in less than dvd5, nevermind dvd9.

What are console devs doing that would suddenly need this (blu-ray) massive storage? I can only think that hd resolution video is included, but that surely won't account for it all?

[shirubagan]

What are console devs doing that would suddenly need this (blu-ray) massive storage? I can only think that hd resolution video is included, but that surely won't account for it all?

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They need the extra space for "REDEFINING THE FUTURE OF VIDEOGAMES" and masses of "HIGHLY SOPHISTICATED AI".

And, lest ye forget, we need that final bit of space for "REALISTIC FACIAL EXPRESSIONS AND HAIR".

IMO Next-gen = new experiences... not more graphical horsepower.

[Lazychu]

Weren't both GT4 and San An pushing the limit of a dual layer disc.

I remember reading so in press releases before the games came out, like they were boasting.

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GTA:SA is less than 4Gb IIRC (as mentioned above). I doubt GT4 is that huge either.

Biggest game I have, AFAIK is Rallisport 2 at just over 6Gb.

So basically 20/50Gb discs = balls, even factoring in hi-def textrures and all that (probablly).

[squirtle]

The biggest Xbox game I can think of was Madden 06 which clocked in at nearly 6 Gigs. Most games are around 2 to 3, with some being as low as 600MB.

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Galleon and Mashed were just over 400meg.

How will Multi disks work on the 360 though? Doesn't opening the tray reset the machine? If they need this, and it isn't done properly, then I see another soft mod option occuring... Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing, just, ya know, it could happen.

[PaB]

Biggest game I have, AFAIK is Rallisport 2 at just over 6Gb.

(probablly).

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Right, so compare that to a previous gen title - say, Colin Mcrae. Or Toca. Both weighing in at what - 600MB?

That's an increase by a factor of 10.

Why will it stop increasing now?

[Monkichi 3.0]

Galleon and Mashed were just over 400meg.

How will Multi disks work on the 360 though? Doesn't opening the tray reset the machine? If they need this, and it isn't done properly, then I see another soft mod option occuring... Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing, just, ya know, it could happen.

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Well it could work via your save data. Say you reach the end of a chapter in an RPG and it's time to change discs then all that happens is that a save file is created giving you access to the content of disc 2. From that point on whenever you want to play the game you insert disc 2.

[Eighthours]

Right, so compare that to a previous gen title - say, Colin Mcrae. Or Toca. Both weighing in at what - 600MB?

That's an increase by a factor of 10.

Why will it stop increasing now?

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Well, for a start compression techniques are way more advanced.

[Lazychu]

Right, so compare that to a previous gen title - say, Colin Mcrae. Or Toca. Both weighing in at what - 600MB?

That's an increase by a factor of 10.

Why will it stop increasing now?

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Well, it won't stop increasing, obviously, but RSC2 is still one of the lagest games available and therefore the whole 'factor of 10' increase shouldn't really be applied.

Not sure what the average size of game this gen has beenm but I'd wager it was around 3gb or so - plenty of room for growth there.

Of course the 360 could be fucked, but it's too hard to get past the hype and early dev waffle to tell yet.

[PaB]

Well, for a start compression techniques are way more advanced.

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Agreed - So perhaps a slow down in the rate of expansion - but a halt? Can't see it myself.

As I said, I don't think it will affect many games - only RPGs and the like (and considering the lack of any meaningful Jap support, RPG's aren't going to be much of a problem ).

[PaB]

Of course the 360 could be fucked, but it's too hard to get past the hype and early dev waffle to tell yet.

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I dont think the 360 will suffer for it at all to be honest. Like I said, multi disc games are nothing new. As long as they are done sensibly - Did anyone care that RE4 was on two discs?

[MK-1601]

Well, for a start compression techniques are way more advanced.

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That would be a good argument if developers didn't already use compression extensively, and if there was some magical way that compression technology was suddenly going to improve by orders of magnitude. In which case the gulf between DVD9 and HD/BD would be widened further.

[dose]

Totally depends on the game and what they're doing. If you're gonna be sticking tonnes of hi-res FMV on the disc, then you're gonna have a problem.

Also, textures are probably quadrupling in size, so that is also going to add up.

[The Liberal Elite]

Totally depends on the game and what they're doing. If you're gonna be sticking tonnes of hi-res FMV on the disc, then you're gonna have a problem.

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but surely these amazingly powerful next gen machines will render (lol) FMV obsolete?

[Monkichi 3.0]

Oooh, I have an idea. What if a game came in 2 discs but you download one of the discs to your 360 hard drive. Then you don't need to change discs and it can get all the info it needs from the HD.

[shirubagan]

Oooh, I have an idea. What if a game came in 2 discs but you download one of the discs to your 360 hard drive. Then you don't need to change discs and it can get all the info it needs from the HD.

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Think about that, and then realise why it wouldn't work.