[therearerules]

Now, if you bought GTA4 chances are you'll have liked something about the GTA series to buy it. But no doubt there are also some ways it could be improved. Not just 4 but the series as a whole. That said, if you disagree and consider some of these necessary for the game to remain unique (such as the lack of sidestep in Resident Evil), or think I'm being petty, please feel free to comment.

You need to be able to restart missions quickly, and from the exciting part which killed you. There are a couple of ways this could be achieved, checkpoints, tighter missions, quicksave, but the fustration arises from spending your time doing something simplistic in order to do something fun/challenging. Far too many times you have to drive somewhere before the mission starts- why not start from that point? This feels like artificial lengthening, and I don't have the time. They've moved slightly, but nowhere near enough on this.

The game shouldn't dump you from a cutscene into a fight/race. In fact, fewer cutscenes altogether. It's impossible to sneak up on somebody because you'll get to the door and Nico will decide to have a cutscene where he shouts for some reason. Or threatens somebody. I understand it's not a stealth game but there ought to be a degree of freedom or room for creative thinking.

Missions should allow for more freedom and room for creativity. As above really. Make the failure requirements less arbitrary and allow me to experiment. Don't wait until a cutscene to spawn the bad guys, or make their vehicles invunerable until certain points. Don't show me a cutscene of people arriving- allow me to do something as they arrive. The engine is built, have faith in it to produce fun moments without the need for scripted set pieces.

Missions should have more variety. An obvious one, but I've done identical missions now which happen to take place in different places. I'd try to be more constructive but I can't right now.

The city/cities need to be varied, extra detail shouldn't mean less interaction but in hi-def. OK, so this is aimed at 4 after SA, but I thought (perhaps my own misguided fault) that they would be removing the expansive and varied gameworld of SA in order to concentrate on a detailed fully realised interactive world of Liberty City. But there is less to do in LC then there is in SA. Most of the shopfronts are still painted on, doors don't open, and there's nothing to do in the buildings anyway. Personally I don't mind this, I spend my time in a GTA outdoors, but I do mind that the outdoors has been reduced to a rich city, a medium city and a poor city. I want my mountain back, my sand dunes, my valley, my lakes, my farms my rural villages.

There will probably more when you and I can remember, but lets try to keep that other thread joyous eh? And this one constructive!

[FishyFish]

Loving the game despite whatever flaws it might have, but I wish there were a proper multiplayer lobby area, rather than the game dropping you back into Niko's apartment should you drop out of a game. The phone's a great device and all, but if I'm in multiplayer, let me stay there until I confirm that I want to go back to single player, rather than forcing me to use the moblle to get back in again..

[Corleth the Fey]

I see the points you're making, man. I think we're going get that 'countryside/bigger than an city/crazy jetpacks etc...' vibe in the next GTA. I think it was enough for them to concentrate on getting a city right this time. And as you say they still missed out on a lot of stuff in that. Allegedly $100 million spent and god knows how many working on it, it might be hell of a lot harder to make the game you're dreaming of than you think.

[Ste Pickford]

I'm wondering if it is trying to do too much? (I've not played every similar game, so don't know for sure what other games do or don't do.)

On the one hand it is a really, really impressive sandbox, dynamic, living world, with all sorts of natural reactions happening, interesting AI, player generated experiences etc. This is a fascinating direction in which video games can and will develop further, and GTA4 is one of the leaders in this area.

On the other hand it's a really well scripted, acted and directed story (by video game standards at least). Personally this side of things interests me less, but you can see with a game like this how far the interactive movie concept has progressed, and it can really work. Again, this is a fascinating direction that video games can and will develop in, and GTA4 is one of the leaders in this area.

But, I think the two directions - the sandbox, dynamic, free, endless world with AI and emergent gameplay, and the scripted, choreographed, cut-scene heavy story experience with a beginning middle and end - are kind of incompatible with each other. They're both trying to do mutually incompatible things and some of the little niggles in GTA4 are due to the tug of war between a tight script and a free environment.

It's a real shame that possibly the best examples of both types of game are combined in the same product.

Probably not appropriate for the GTA series, but I think I'd rather see new games expanding and developing the kind of free, open world we have in GTA, but dumping the scripted story, or cut scene based story, and instead look at ways of either telling stories more naturally within the environment, or not bothering to tell pre-written stories at all but better allow player-created stories to happen.

At the same time, why not have brilliantly scripted and acted interactive movie type games too? They just don't need to be cutting edge dynamic sandbox worlds at the same time. Maybe that way the script writers will have less limitations on the way they can tell their stories, and their carefully planned scripts won't be getting in the way of the programming teams making more dynamic worlds.

[Warszawa]

So, it looks like my 50 hours spent on this game (just under 60% in) have been broken by a monumental bug.

Spoiler

After doing the 'I'll Take Her' kidnapping mission, Packie has not phoned and asked me to get a picture. There's nothing else to do now, so it looks like my only option would be to restart. Which I won't do, of course, I'll simply sell the game.

It's atrocious. No game with such an atrocious bug can possibly be worth more than a 3 or 4 out of 10. Awful, awful coding from Rockstar North, who should be ashamed of themselves for being so exceedingly shoddy.

[Liquid Myth]

The controls are an absolute disaster. There's such a conflict between the buttons, I end up dying in the panic.

[Timmo]

Warszawa, on May 11 2008, 11:41 PM, said:

So, it looks like my 50 hours spent on this game (just under 60% in) have been broken by a monumental bug.

Spoiler

After doing the 'I'll Take Her' kidnapping mission, Packie has not phoned and asked me to get a picture. There's nothing else to do now, so it looks like my only option would be to restart. Which I won't do, of course, I'll simply sell the game.

It's atrocious. No game with such an atrocious bug can possibly be worth more than a 3 or 4 out of 10. Awful, awful coding from Rockstar North, who should be ashamed of themselves for being so exceedingly shoddy.

Are there any other missions available? There's a purposeful delay before he asks you, and the time it takes is quite random. Do whatever other missions you have free. If there are none, go to sleep a few times and leave Niko outside for a whil. The text/call should come.

I take it you've looked at a walkthrough? The problem with them is that a lot of the timing of events is random. Some people will get certain missions before others.

[Warszawa]

Tim Spoons it, on May 11 2008, 11:45 PM, said:

Are there any other missions available? There's a purposeful delay before he asks you, and the time it takes is quite random. Do whatever other missions you have free. If there are none, go to sleep a few times and leave Niko outside for a whil. The text/call should come.

I take it you've looked at a walkthrough? The problem with them is that a lot of the timing of events is random. Some people will get certain missions before others.

Yeah, had a look after the missions disappeared.

Shall give it a shot. I'm very worried though, because I've already done a few missions for other people, I've also met up with Packie. Worse of all, a bit of Google searching has led me to believe that I'm not alone with this problem:

http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/action/grandthe...&pid=933036

[therearerules]

Ste Pickford, on May 11 2008, 11:31 PM, said:

It's a real shame that possibly the best examples of both types of game are combined in the same product.

I agree completely that it veers off in two directions, and whilst I say it does (pr the series does) open worlds brilliantly, I must admit to always being at best confused and at worst turned off by their stories. The motivations of the characters never match their actions, and whilst they can be entertaining I do find myself wincing inside when people refer to them as some of the best stories in gaming.

Liquid Myth, on May 11 2008, 11:44 PM, said:

The controls are an absolute disaster. There's such a conflict between the buttons, I end up dying in the panic.

Yes, I forgot:

Analogue running please. I shouldn't have to tap a button to run, this isn't track and field and it just makes jumping hard. Not that jumping isn't hard anyway, Niko takes a run when you push the jump button, unaligning things, the animation has come before the controls. I should be able to turn my body without walking, but Nico's turning circle can make on foot control cumbersome. A solution should be the option, even if not the default setting, to have analogue control and Nico to turn with the camera. Like most other third person games.

[Yoshimax]

FishyFish, on May 11 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

Loving the game despite whatever flaws it might have, but I wish there were a proper multiplayer lobby area, rather than the game dropping you back into Niko's apartment should you drop out of a game. The phone's a great device and all, but if I'm in multiplayer, let me stay there until I confirm that I want to go back to single player, rather than forcing me to use the moblle to get back in again..

That's you being "ejected" from the session rather than the end of a session - you should stay in the multiplayer section of the game till you choose to quit but there seems to be a few matchmaking issues at present which aren't properly exception-handled.

[Lothar Hex]

I'd agree it needs either a mid-mission checkpoint or a better retry system. So furstrating to get halfway through a mission and then to do something daft or be shot, then have to drive to the location and everything again.

[Majora]

For a game that clearly has trouble mapping all the controls onto one control pad, it does seem silly to waste a whole button on running. I can't see a single benefit in it myself. If you like just walking around rather than running because it's more immersive then the analogue stick alone allows you to do that, I did it all the time in Hitman for example. I would rather that extra button it would free up be used to switch weapons or something because I find reaching down to the D-Pad awkward, especially if I'm running away from someone at the same time.

[Dimahoo]

therearerules said:

Probably not appropriate for the GTA series, but I think I'd rather see new games expanding and developing the kind of free, open world we have in GTA, but dumping the scripted story, or cut scene based story, and instead look at ways of either telling stories more naturally within the environment, or not bothering to tell pre-written stories at all but better allow player-created stories to happen

.

Whilst that works for games like Elite (which is a sandbox game without a continuous story), its much harder to implement on the ground because a city is that much smaller, amongst other things.

Crackdown went a fair way to progressing what your saying though.

[Cheeko]

I totally agree Ste.

Quote

the sandbox, dynamic, free, endless world with AI and emergent gameplay

I think Crackdown has shown us there is an alternative approach where you focus on certain things, crackdown had a lot less going on but you never questioned it, it was like 'here's the system, go play' where with GTA4 you're constantly 'why can't I do that?' 'why can't I go in that shop' etc.

It totally negated the need to go to and from missions as all the bosses are just in the city all the time and you can just go and get them, it was all sandbox but it was cold and the city wasn't living breathing, it was a climbing frame with a racetrack in it. It worked well and everything was clear.

Quote

scripted, choreographed, cut-scene heavy story experience with a beginning middle and end

I think that's the way GTA is headed and where this game's heart and strengths lie, I really enjoy spending time with the characters but I am torn as I'm not progressing the game any further, ultimately where do those relationships get you? I think Michelle is really boring and I ignore all her calls and requests and there's no consequence of that.

It is amazing when you're flying over the city in a helicopter, but where does that freedom get you? You can't swoop in and interact, you have to pre-arrange everything with mission markers at fixed point A or B.

Ultimately it's just you on this journey.

[SteveH]

Yep, mid-mission check points should be a given in any future iterations, especially as the game worlds get bigger and missions get longer.

Also stuff like A.I shouldn't be put by the wayside just because they want to build this huge immersive world. Nothing shatters that illusion worse than taxi drivers who can't negotiate a corner without hitting lamp posts, or who collect me at my safe house and then decide that they should head the wrong way down the one way section and get completely stuck. Or Packie running around like a headless chicken as bad guys pepper him with holes.

They have created something astounding, but that can look awfully silly and amateurish at times.

[Dimahoo]

cheeko said:

It is amazing when you're flying over the city in a helicopter, but where does that freedom get you? You can't swoop in and interact, you have to pre-arrange everything with mission markers at fixed point A or B.

Ultimately it's just you on this journey.

Its a fair point that. I think Sam Houser has also indicated he wants to take the series into a more filmic direction.

MikeP said:

They have created something astounding, but that can look awfully silly and amateurish at times.

Theres a lot to be said about "if you can't do it properly....."
but it has to be said, sandbox on a scale like this is still in its infancy and another problem is that online games that do a similar thing do it properly because theres no AI and with this that obviously has to be programmed in.

I must say, i REALLY hate that filter now. Its problem is its far to close to you. On far buildings its fine as a city can be blurred like that if environmental conditions are correct (you could atribute it to heat haze), but not within 40ft or so.

[Majora]

MikeP, on May 12 2008, 12:02 AM, said:

Yep, mid-mission check points should be a given in any future iterations, especially as the game worlds get bigger and missions get longer.

Also stuff like A.I shouldn't be put by the wayside just because they want to build this huge immersive world. Nothing shatters that illusion worse than taxi drivers who can't negotiate a corner without hitting lamp posts, or who collect me at my safe house and then decide that they should head the wrong way down the one way section and get completely stuck. Or Packie running around like a headless chicken as bad guys pepper him with holes.

They have created something astounding, but that can look awfully silly and amateurish at times.

I agree, but I haven't seen a game of this type which doesn't have these AI hiccups. The funniest moment I've had with the game was in the lawyer mission, where all the employees were running backwards and forwards in an endless loop like headless chickens. Then one of the female employees stopped next to me and remarked how she wanted to hook up with me and then ran off screaming in her never ending loop again :D

[therearerules]

MikeP, on May 12 2008, 12:02 AM, said:

Yep, mid-mission check points should be a given in any future iterations, especially as the game worlds get bigger and missions get longer.

Also stuff like A.I shouldn't be put by the wayside just because they want to build this huge immersive world. Nothing shatters that illusion worse than taxi drivers who can't negotiate a corner without hitting lamp posts, or who collect me at my safe house and then decide that they should head the wrong way down the one way section and get completely stuck. Or Packie running around like a headless chicken as bad guys pepper him with holes.

They have created something astounding, but that can look awfully silly and amateurish at times.

Definately. Normally I wouldn't be too fussed about the appearance of NPCs or their actions, but in a cinematic game they need to be as good as they can get. One thing which would be nice would be to not make people fall down stairs because Nico walked behind them. Even at slow walking speed people will fall down stairs if you brush past them. They need some weight, euphoria makes folks eager to fall down it would appear (the same when Nico crosses the road and touches a car.)

[Yoshimax]

I couldn't agree more about the waste of a button for sprinting - especially galling when you realise they aligned "RB" and "A" to handbrake - i assume to facilitate driving & being on / answering the phone at the same time

No matter what though, I'm fully confident that going on the previous GTA output model last gen we'll see giant leaps from here on out whether that's the DLC or the next iteration (which surely can't be VC2 as some seem to think/wish)

[Escape]

Warszawa, on May 11 2008, 11:41 PM, said:

So, it looks like my 50 hours spent on this game (just under 60% in) have been broken by a monumental bug.

It happened to me (PS3). I waited for about three in-game days and didn't receive the call. I switched it off that night muttering under my breath, with the plan of checking online for something I'd missed the next day. I'd done the missions in a deliberate order because I'd heard Francis' final mission affects the ending. After completing that one, I had three more due from Gerry before the end section, but as you say: Packie doesn't call.

As soon as I loaded the game the next day, Packie phoned me immediately.

One pretty big complaint people haven't been talking about is the 'invulnerable frames'. Shooting enemies who are falling down or getting up doesn't register until the animation has finished.

Majora, on May 11 2008, 11:57 PM, said:

If you like just walking around rather than running because it's more immersive then the analogue stick alone allows you to do that

I always did the paramedic mission early on in the last three, because it's so much better to hold the button than play Track & 'Jack.

The on-foot controls were really good in San Andreas too, which is the worst thing about this new system.