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Unofficial Who

Tropes Vs. Women In Video Games

14194 posts in this topic

[quote name='James Lyon' timestamp='1339656889' post='8665251']
I'd considered donating just as a stance on people's behaviour towards her, but I'm seeing now she might not need that. She's already about 20 times over her rather modest $6000 goal.
[/quote]

I guess that's the justice from the pile on to silence her. The Streisland Effect in full swing. I'm betting a load of people donated just to spite the uglies.
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[quote name='Comrade' timestamp='1339636088' post='8665169']
Internet wankers make sexual threats towards women because they know women will be offended by that.
[/quote]

That's not even the half of it though.
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I think this is worth posting:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE[/url]
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[quote name='Straps' timestamp='1339665996' post='8665436']
That's not even the half of it though.
[/quote]

Yeah, we're kind of missing the part where it's "Internet wankers make sexual threats [b]and racist, and generally misogynistic comments[/b] towards women because [b]said women choose to discuss the portrayal of women in games, or about the potential for offering players the option to dial down action scenes in games, or lead a development studio, or in some other way exist within the industry and choose to make their voice heard[/b]".

But I'm sure that men in the same position get exactly the same response, right Comrade? John Walker and Peter Molyneux and Cliffy B are regularly accosted by tens of thousands of bile-filled, vitriolic comments attacking them as people, threatening and insulting them for merely existing, every time they make any sort of statement, right?

Right?

(Now, as to the merit of the project itself, I leave that up to you. But to pretend that the only issue is the [i]type [/i]of attacks that are directed at women within the industry, while ignoring the sheer prevalence, volume and precise targetting of them, is disingenuous to say the least)
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[quote name='Pixelbark' timestamp='1339666429' post='8665454']
I think this is worth posting:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE[/media]
[/quote]

I'm loving his contrarian points. His patronising laugh and above all his pre-judgement of the series without seeing a single episode.

A lot of his arguement seems to be "I'm not interested in this shit so why should it be made? (And plus I have an interest in a niche hobby but I'm not uncool enough to make noise about it!)"

He makes a valid point about the self interest in such projects although again these projects are so niche I don't think they're being shoved under everyone's nose.

My counterpoint would be that these docos have only gotten the exposure that they have because of some people being so upset about their mere existance that some have crossed the line and directly threatened the authors while trying to get the projects shut down.

But here's the thing. As much as I don't agree with his view he gets a thumbs up for stating his opinion without resorting to threats of sexual violence. He's not vandalising the authors web page or trying to get the project cancelled. His point is that in his opinion the games industry is a-ok. That's his right.

Good thing he isn't a chick though, otherwise people might be down on him for being so strident and hey, why isn't he fetching me a brewski from the kitchen?
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The horrific misogyny this has attracted has sadly probably also made a larger audience aware of it. I would probably have never heard of it otherwise, let alone be interested enough to go and watch some of her earlier youtube videos, which I actually found quite interesting. The similar series on tropes in Film and TV did highlight a rather ridiculous stereotype in 'the Straw Feminist' and I'd be intrigued to watch the rest of them.

But I don't feel the need to donate to the kickstarter, especially now it has achieved about 20 times its original goal and given that the results will be freely available it does seem a bit weird. I have no problem with it being a video series over a blog though, tons of people use this format and I think it can make it more engaging, plus easier to mix in the actual examples of what you're talking about than sending people off to watch a youtube clip every other paragraph.
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I'd love to see the series expanded with a look into the new guard.

Auntie Pixelante with her BDSM themed indie games might be a bit too much for most school curriculums but there's been some pretty brave stands of late by some of the bigger studios, especially EA/Bioware standing firm on allowing male gay choices in their latest RPG's.
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Damn it! Did I miss someone using the white knight line? (takes a belated swig from his beer.)

One interesting arguement I've seen gaining traction about this kickstarter project is the 'will hurt won't work' line.

It seems to run this way

1 This project will hurt the hobby that doesn't need to be changed or examined at all and it needs to be squashed so the feminazis don't ruin it for the bros.

2 Besides, it's not going to change anything anyway so it's just a waste of everyone's time.

I tihnk a lot of sexism and abuse becomes so invisible that we don't even notice it. I know I didn't notice some of the nastier examples in comics until I heard about Women in Refrigerators. This doesn't mean that we should be calling for a ban on certain games. But we should be allowed to criticise and debate certain games. For instance I loved Dear Esther. A lot of people didn't and have criticised it or have created fantastic parodies of it. Interestingly enough the authors weren't bombarded with threats of sexual violence, and the supporters of Dear Esther haven't demanded that all games become walking with emo grief simulators.
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[quote name='Comrade' timestamp='1339636088' post='8665169']
I imagine that we're talking about the quality of the video because it's a more interesting topic than the astonishing and jaw-dropping revelation that people on the internet are cunts.

Internet wankers make sexual threats towards women because they know women will be offended by that. They don't make sexual threats towards men because they know men don't give a shit. I'm not saying this means that women shouldn't be offended by sexual threats, but I'm saying it's just the nature of the beast. They are out to cause the maximum amount of offence possible. And no amount of hand-wringing blogs or forum posts (of which there are thousands) is going to change that.[/quote]

It's not so much that men "don't care", but rather that women are overwhelmingly the victim of sexual and gendered attacks/assaults (physical or verbal). It's a very real, day-to-day problem for most women - being told by others about having to look out for themselves, to not go anywhere alone, to avoid darkened areas etc. - because the culture of violence against women is a continued element of our society, regardless of how much of a "developed" nation we are.

An interesting point to reflect upon is how many negative terms are loaded with the female sex, as you unironically threw out "cunt" without a second thought.

[quote]I'm not saying there's not a sexist side to the wider gaming community - because there obviously is - but in this case I imagine that heads were mainly turned by the ridiculous nature of the Kickstarter than the actual basic content. If she'd just written some blog posts about sexist "tropes" in videogames I'm sure it would have immediately sunk into obscurity as it's such a banal topic.
[/quote]

She has a [url="http://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency"]whole series of videos on Youtube[/url] about tropes in other media that easily extend to videogames for most cases, with terms presented in very clear formats for those without academic experience in reading about feminism, but given that you haven't even been bothered to watch those, it's quite apparent that you would have never started to look for a list of tropes on misogynistic elements in videogames.
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[quote name='Wiper' timestamp='1339666610' post='8665462']
Yeah, we're kind of missing the part where it's "Internet wankers make sexual threats [b]and racist, and generally misogynistic comments[/b] towards women because [b]said women choose to discuss the portrayal of women in games, or about the potential for offering players the option to dial down action scenes in games, or lead a development studio, or in some other way exist within the industry and choose to make their voice heard[/b]".

But I'm sure that men in the same position get exactly the same response, right Comrade? John Walker and Peter Molyneux and Cliffy B are regularly accosted by tens of thousands of bile-filled, vitriolic comments attacking them as people, threatening and insulting them for merely existing, every time they make any sort of statement, right?
[/quote]

Just to throw in here, apparently John Walker et al have been getting a lot of angry comments, the nastier ones they aren't publishing, the lesser ones accusing RPS of White Knighting.
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To see the extent of misogyny (or at least dodgy gender representation) in videogames all you have to do is look at how many women in gaming are shown as strippers, prostitutes and sex objects. It's been getting worse every generation.
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Fuck it, sexism within games will always exist if we allow characters to have genders! I hear-by declare that every character should have gender-neutral names like Rory and Sage; should only have colours that aren't related to any real life race and need to have 90° bevelled crotch, with the words "you make me sick" finely textured into it in-case some weirdo gets a kick out of it.
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[quote name='Mr Retroid' timestamp='1339674715' post='8665682']
Fuck it, sexism within games will always exist if we allow characters to have genders! I hear-by declare that every character should have gender-neutral names like Rory and Sage; should only have colours that aren't related to any real life race and need to have 90° bevelled crotch, with the words "you make me sick" finely textured into it in-case some weirdo gets a kick out of it.
[/quote]

Oh, then you wont be interested in this?

[url="http://www.indiegogo.com/The-Arkh-Project"]http://www.indiegogo.com/The-Arkh-Project[/url]

:(
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[quote name='ZOK' timestamp='1339675817' post='8665719']
No surprise that this has caused outrage - people rarely like to have a mirror held to their faces. The only real surprise is that there are so few people on rllmuk who have publicly scorned it. There are many people on here that I would class as casually misogynist at best.

Also no surprise to see people who are unashamedly anti-mysogynist being labelled 'white knights'. Anyone who uses the phrase in critique instantly exposes the deficiencies in their own mindset, of course.
[/quote]

The problem is, that a select group of individuals have effectively removed our right to have an opposing opinion on the project by going so far beyond the line of decency. No one wants to be associated with the petty name callers.

I for one don't agree with the subject of the video, mainly due to the fact that we can say the very same thing about the male protagonists. Over-sexualised, ripped, angry beefcakes that don't represent the majority of male gamers. But thanks to the actions of a few dicks on 4chan, I can't express that without being brushed the same colour as these gits.

"I can't be arsed to come up with a well rounded argument, so instead, I'm just going to insult her", which only goes further to promote and validate her polemic.
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[quote name='Pixelbark' timestamp='1339676684' post='8665745']
I for one don't agree with the subject of the video, mainly due to the fact that we can say the very same thing about the male protagonists. Over-sexualised, ripped, angry beefcakes that don't represent the majority of male gamers.
[/quote]

But why is that an argument against it? Genuinely, I don't see why the fact that men in games are mostly portrayed in sexualised, stereotypical ways means we can't discuss the fact that women in games are mostly portrayed in sexualised, stereotypical ways. Unless she at some point explicitly states that only female characters are stereotyped? Incidentally, I'd be very happy to see a program all about the way in which male characters are represented in computer games (and media in general).
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[quote name='Mr Retroid' timestamp='1339674715' post='8665682']
Fuck it, sexism within games will always exist if we allow characters to have genders! I hear-by declare that every character should have gender-neutral names like Rory and Sage; should only have colours that aren't related to any real life race and need to have 90° bevelled crotch, with the words "you make me sick" finely textured into it in-case some weirdo gets a kick out of it.
[/quote]

Don't be stupid.
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[quote name='Pixelbark' timestamp='1339676684' post='8665745']
The problem is, that a select group of individuals have effectively removed our right to have an opposing opinion on the project by going so far beyond the line of decency. No one wants to be associated with the petty name callers.

I for one don't agree with the subject of the video, mainly due to the fact that we can say the very same thing about the male protagonists. Over-sexualised, ripped, angry beefcakes that don't represent the majority of male gamers. But thanks to the actions of a few dicks on 4chan, I can't express that without being brushed the same colour as these gits.

"I can't be arsed to come up with a well rounded argument, so instead, I'm just going to insult her", which only goes further to promote and validate her polemic.
[/quote]

Hmm, of course it doesn't. If you can articulate your reasoning for being against something, it will stand.

The real problem you'll have opposing this is that, of course, there is no reason to oppose it. If someone wants to make a series of videos exploring aspects of creative endeavours, and other people want to fund it, then they can and should.
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Very true, while I see it as pointless myself, she still has the right to make it.

I just wish it was a more well rounded polemic on the industry as a whole, rather then only taking the feminist stance.
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The likelihood is that if game developers start to improve the image of women in video games then the image of men will also have more thought given to it. It's clear that the representation of women in video games is far more troubled than men, so that is a more pressing issue.
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