216 replies to this topic

[Cheeko]

I don't want to derail the Fez thread and turn it into a debate about Japanese games, we can do that here instead

Phil Fish, the outspoken developer behind the upcoming indie platformer Fez, had some harsh words for a Japanese developer at GDC.

According to Develop Online , the incident occurred at a screening of Indie Game: The Movie, a documentary on the independent game development scene that prominently featured Fez and Fish.

According to the report, after the screening there was a Q&A session, where an unidentified Japanese developer came to the microphone and praised the movie, then asked Fish his opinion of the current Japanese game industry.

Fish responded, "Your games just suck," and went on to criticize Japanese development.

Some in attendance criticized Fish for his remarks via Twitter, but Fish himself seemed unrepentant on Twitter today, with a tweet that read: "im sorry japanese guy! i was a bit rough, but your country's games are f------ terrible nowadays."

So, my thoughts were that

I used to buy Jap consoles specifically to have their games but I certainly wouldn't do that now.

Japanese games had identity and a draw, titles like Journey, Dear Esther and Fez are the kinds of things that we'd expect from Japan but they were all made in the west.

I follow games sites like Edge and Hookshot and I've not seen anything from Japan to get excited about in a while unless I'm forgetting some? Sine Mora interested me, but even that has a Western co-developer.

I kinda agree with his statement, what does everyone else think? What innovations and great Japanese games am I missing out on? Or is it just that I don't have a 3DS and that's where all the Japanese games are these days?

[SozzlyJoe]

Tastes have diverged, and Japanese devs were slow to embrace HD so there is a big skew towards portable consoles.
Nintendo still have got the magic though. SM3DL is like the apex of all game design to date.

[dng]

Muscle March proves undoubtedly that Japanese games are better than everything

[Vemsie]

Pah. Some of the best and most creative games this gen came from Japan. The Mario Galaxies are filled to the rim with creativity. Bayonetta, which had mechanics deeper than any western action game I can think of. The Souls games, which shows some developers are sticking to their own creative vision instead of appealing to the lowest common denominator. Skyrim might be big, but it's shallow as a puddle compared to From's masterpieces. Vanquish, which proved that you can still do something interesting with a shooter. Dead Rising, with its sandbox gameplay and time management. And what would the fighting game genre be without them?

They are less productive, but they still deliver the goods.

[scottcr]

He's a MASSIVE DICK

[Mr Do 71]

Pullblox!

[Straps]

His complete classlessness and stupid sideburns mean I am no longer interested in Fez.

Well I'll download the trial, but I probably won't buy it.

[Keyboard Koala]

I think his statement is a gross overgeneralization and exaggeration.
If anything, I think it's US games that are bringing down the overall quality of the videogames market. Look at the quasi endless number of (military) FPSs, the year-after-year sports games updates, the shoehorning of Kinect in just about every new Xbox game, the abundance of utter pish on the iPhones and what have you. Sorry American guy, but that's just utter bollocks.

[simms]

Let me start off by saying that games of Japanese origin still have a lot to offer and there are certain genres that cannot be done better other than under Japanese direction but I've personally gone full circle in terms of taste in gaming. I started out in home computing many years ago with Commodores and Sinclairs whereby bought exclusively western games then transitioned to consoles in the 8bit and 16bit era where games that I mostly bought were of Japanese origin then the playstation turned things around again with games like wipeout & Grand theft auto 3 along with japanese games that continued through onto the Xbox whereby I increasing started buying western games to a point now where most games are like that. Where the game originated from as never influenced my decision but I just bought whatever I felt I wanted to play and looking back on my gaming history reveals this. There are a few games I'm looking forward to and have still yet to play. I've still got Dark Souls in its shrink wrap.

[Couk]

His complete classlessness and stupid sideburns mean I am no longer interested in Fez.

Well I'll download the trial, but I probably won't buy it.

Lets not speak harshly about sideburns.

[simms]

I think his statement is a gross overgeneralization and exaggeration.
If anything, I think it's US games that are bringing down the overall quality of the videogames market. Look at the quasi endless number of (military) FPSs, the year-after-year sports games updates, the shoehorning of Kinect in just about every new Xbox game, the abundance of utter pish on the iPhones and what have you. Sorry American guy, but that's just utter bollocks.

Your statement is ridiculous. There's probably endless numbers of [insert whatever genre is super popular in japan] that are poor that do not see the light of day in other countries.

[Captain LeChuck]

Simms, play Dark Souls. I'll agree that jap-developed games are more often than not lower in quality these days than western games. But the likes of Dark Souls, Yakuza, and apparently Binary Domain show that the japs have still got it.

[spatular]

Sine Mora interested me, but even that has a Western co-developer.

grasshopper had minimal input - art concepts and sound effects iirc.

japan still makes good games (is nintendo is too obvious to mention?) cave still make the best 2d shooters imo. catherine and persona.

[Super Craig]

It does seem like the Japanese are struggling with the technology side of things these days. The output of Capcom and Konami is massively reduced in comparison to last generation. And that's with Capcom outsourcing things to the west. It'll be interesting to see how Nintendo copes when the Wii U is released given that they're already stretched a bit thin between two platforms.

[Mentazm]

I've said a similar thing in the past (too hung up on anime, subjugating women, and outdated gameplay - jrpgs specifically). However, 3 reasons I was wrong.

Grasshopper
Nintendo (about 80% of their first party titles at least)
From

No, they aren't the centre point of the gaming world anymore, but I think that's directly proportional to Playstations downfall.

[joffocakes]

And inversely proportional to the Wii's success?
Platinum are amazing also. To what extent are Platinum Games Clover Studios? Because they've pretty much not made a bad game; I've loved everything I've played at least.

[Timmo]

It's harder for them to make great graphics because of their narrower eyes.

[revlob]

How has Fish managed to become the latest celebrity of the indie scene? Did he do something before Fez? Opinions like his are three-a-penny yet all I know about him is that he's spent a long time building an indie platformer, which doesn't seem like enough to propel him to the dizzying heights of gaming blog stardom.

[Vemsie]

And inversely proportional to the Wii's success?
Platinum are amazing also. To what extent are Platinum Games Clover Studios? Because they've pretty much not made a bad game; I've loved everything I've played at least.

To a pretty large extent I think. Kamiya, Inaba and Hashimoto all worked at Clover.

[Keyboard Koala]

Your statement is ridiculous. There's probably endless numbers of [insert whatever genre is super popular in japan] that are poor that do not see the light of day in other countries.

I think it's a matter of taste really. Whereas I am on cloud 9 every time a big Nintendo, or a new Grasshopper game is announced; I couldn't give a damn about Mass Effect 3, Halo 4, or Max Payne 3. And there are other people who think the exact opposite. But saying Japanese games suck is just very wrong, and from where I'm standing (ie. not a fan of FPS and the like), I'd say the same thing about American games.

[dayte]

The developer nevertheless thanked the panel for their response and returned to his seat.

(from the comments) The Japanese developer in question did not return to this seat, he immediately left.

I'm just thinking it's a clash of cultures. Put a guy who knows respect, following the rules of etiquette etc. and them him asking a question that essentially gives an open goal to a guy from an arrogant background with limited fame on a power trip, and this is what happens. Rest assured two similarly 'aggressive' cultures would have gotten the interviewer coming up on stage and hitting him. Swearing at least.

Again tied with the culture aspect, who the fuck actually asks a question like that? When the US was behind Japan in the game aspect (and arguably still are, if we aren't thinking of sales), did Cliffy B go up to Shigsy and ask 'praise the Japanese lord, your games are superior... what do you think of our humble American games?' It's just not the American way.

[Comrade]

We already went over this in the Fez thread back, you know, when it happened. The consensus was that while there are plenty of reasonable criticisms to level at Japanese game development, Phil Fish still acted like a cunt about it.

[deerokus]

How has Fish managed to become the latest celebrity of the indie scene? Did he do something before Fez? Opinions like his are three-a-penny yet all I know about him is that he's spent a long time building an indie platformer, which doesn't seem like enough to propel him to the dizzying heights of gaming blog stardom.

No, he's never actually released a game (until tomorrow).


Also, are we to compare 'games made in Japan' to 'games from every other country in the world'? That seems to be the 'Japanese/Western' dynamic, which is a bit silly.

[simms]

I think it's a matter of taste really. Whereas I am on cloud 9 every time a big Nintendo, or a new Grasshopper game is announced; I couldn't give a damn about Mass Effect 3, Halo 4, or Max Payne 3. And there are other people who think the exact opposite. But saying Japanese games suck is just very wrong, and from where I'm standing (ie. not a fan of FPS and the like), I'd say the same thing about American games.

So your statement is just very wrong just like mr fish. To not play any games based on we're they have been developed is strange in my opinion.

I do think that Japanese gaming does not have the same draw it used to a few years ago but that's not saying there aren't some great games coming. I want to play Dark Souls pronto and it is on my to be played pile as I hate having too many games on the go.

[Matteo]

One good thing that could come out of the competiton of west vs east is more creativity for both sides. It seems to me that Japanese developers clearly benefited from Western input, in terms of creativity and technology. What some western games lack is polish in the gameplay department...only now we are getting a western 2D fighting game that plays as good as it looks; 3D fighting games are still pretty much a Japanese niche. I am looking forward to some more western input in the fighting genre.

[Cheeko]

I don't really think of Nintendo's output as being part of the Japanese gaming industry in the same way that I don't see Halo and CoD as part of the Western gaming industry.

I'd compare it to blockbuster films and low budget ones, there's two different categories and I'm personally not seeing much of the smaller stuff from Japan these days.

As mentioned before though it's a bit unfair to be putting Japan against Europe and the US, I'm probably amalgamating a lot of things in my head, Dear Esther is UK isn't it?

Do they have gamejams in Japan?

[Eats hoops and leaves]

Ugh. What a twat.

[Eats hoops and leaves]

Stuff like this makes me ashamed to like games. 99% of everybody involved is just a prick.

[ZOK]

I have played videogames for a very long time, and in my considered opinion, some games are good, and some games are bad.

Real talk.

[Pedro de las Montagnes]

Is he not referring to the smaller indie devs to which he is comparable? I don't think I know a small interesting game that's come from the jap indie scene. Not defending a stupid generalisation.