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Rev

Photography Discussion

69 posts in this topic

I've always thought we should have such a thread and this news story didn't really fit in Equipment discussion:

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/01/25/create-a-similarly-composed-photo-in-the-uk-risk-copyright-infringement/

[img]http://www.petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2012/01/redbus_mini.jpg[/img]

[quote]If you’re a photographer in the UK, you might want to think twice about shooting and selling a photograph that has a similar composition to an existing photo. Souvenir company Temple Island Collection has won a copyright infringement case against tea company New English Teas after a photo of a red London bus was used on tea packaging. Photo copyright expert and lawyer Charles Swan states,

[i] His honour Judge Birss QC decided that a photograph of a red London bus against a black and white background of Big Ben and the Houses of Parliament, with a blank sky, was similar enough to another photograph of the same subject matter to infringe copyright.

The decision is perhaps surprising, given the commonplace subject matter of the photographs. The judge himself admitted that he found it a difficult question, but in the end he decided that a substantial part of photograph one [Temple Island's image, top] had been reproduced in photograph two [New English Teas', bottom].[/i]

Although the photo itself wasn’t copied, the judge ruled that the similarity of the ‘visual contrast’ of the red bus and B&W background infringed on the original photographer’s ‘intellectual creation’. The case is reminiscent of photographer David LaChapelle’s lawsuit against Rihanna for infringing upon his style in one of her music videos. Rihanna ended up paying an undisclosed sum of money to LaChapelle to settle the case.
[/quote]

That is terrifying. The pictures are completely different and very, very obvious. Plus the second "copied" one is significantly better.
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That's the most rediculous thing I've heard for a while! The images are pretty different really, and you are right, the second one is better! Does that mean that any photo with a copyright means no-one else is allowed to take one similar and use it?
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I genuinely don't know. Also, in that case, it would be entirely possible for someone to download a picture of, say, yours that was coloured normally and do the photoshop work themselves - who gets sued then?

It's not the only really awkward photography lawsuit either. As well as obtaining a model release and a property release for Royalty Free use, if your images are going on sale in France you now really ought to secure a [i]furniture[/i] release:

[quote]Getty Images is appealing a French court decision that could set a precedent affecting stock photographers across the world, BJP has learnt.

The case was launched by Pernette Martin-Barsac and Jacqueline Jeanneret Gris, who are the respective holders of the hereditary and moral rights over the works of furniture designers Charlotte Perriand and Pierre Jeanneret. Both designers worked with Charles-Edouart Jeanneret, also known as Le Corbusier, to create a series of armchairs and sofas that have become iconic items of the 20th Century.

"My clients, with the Le Corbusier Foundation, own the intellectual property rights to these pieces of furniture," lawyer Dominique de Leusse tells BJP. "For the past 25 years, we've been fighting to stop the counterfeiting of these iconic objects - most of them coming out of Italy - but also against the reproduction in print of these art pieces."

He adds: "These iconic objects are associated with the ideas of quality, comfort and luxury. And often, we see marketing agencies use them to promote computers, alcohol or even financial products. They try to associate the values these objects have with what they're selling. And, the French courts have found that you can't reproduce a work of art without autorisation."

In recent years, de Leusse has found that the images used in these commercial originally came from Getty Images, prompting the lawyer to sue the stock library. "Getty Images is selling images representing these objects without authorisation and without mentioning the names of the rightful copyright holders," de Leusse tells BJP. "The designers' heiresses don't want to see these objects become commonplace," which could have an impact on their value.

Earlier this month, a French court of appeal found against the stock agency, arguing that the designers' intellectual property should be protected, unless the objects were just accessories in the images sold. It wasn't not the case here, according to the court.

"Basically, there are two notions of copyright going against each other in this particular case," says de Leusse. "Photographers' copyright, and the designers' rights. Very much like a photographer needs the authorisation of people featured in their photos before selling them, they also need the authorisation of the intellectual property rights' holders when it comes to works of art such as these objects."

The court's decision has led Getty Images to contact its creative stills and video contributors to alert them against the potential danger of using designer furniture in licensed content.

In an email seen by BJP, Getty Images writes: "The French courts have found in favor of the Le Corbusier rights-holders who initiated these claims. While we disagree with the decision and we are appealing it, we are very mindful that for now, it is a valid decision. It is critical that you understand that any claim like this one is extremely serious and requires action on your part in order to protect your interests, not just ours. We will continue to fight this decision, but in the meantime we must continue to actively pull content from our site that may be deemed infringing. We simply cannot identify all problematic images as quickly without your active participation. And quick action is vital."

The agency adds: "You are responsible under your agreements with us to submit only content for which you have the necessary rights. Using this case as an example, while you may hold a copyright in a particular image or clip, if it contains even a fraction of a Le Corbusier piece then you may not have all the necessary rights under French law to provide that content and therefore may be liable for copyright infringement under French law in respect of the furniture featured."

In a statement sent to BJP, Jonathan Lockwood, vice president of corporate counsel at the stock agency, says: "As a creator and provider of content, respecting intellectual property rights is of the utmost importance to Getty Images. Whilst we respect the differences in French law compared to other jurisdictions, this case involves very specific facts and we can confirm that we are appealing the current decision. The issues involve a conflict between different copyrights and we are taking a stance in support and representation of our photographers and photojournalists from France and elsewhere in the world."

He adds: "We look forward to resolving this matter through the appropriate channels."

De Leusse doesn't believe Getty Images will be successful with its latest appeal. "Jurisprudence goes against them at the moment," he tells BJP. "But I understand their point and the economic impact a proper precedent could have if they lose this case. Other designers and artists could wake up and sue them as well."

In the meantime, Getty Images has sent to its contributors a list of objects that can't be featured in licensed content. It includes furniture designed by Le Corbusier, Ame Jacobsen, Eero Aarnio and Mies van der Rohe.

Read more: http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2140613/getty-images-fights-copyright-infringement-ruling-french-court#ixzz1kaZbPcFJ
Subscribe to BJP and save money. Click here to save 29% today.
[/quote]

It's all a bit terrifying really.
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I've got a couple of questions that fit in here. These are coming from the standpoint of a beginner photographer.

1. How do you take pictures of people without them reacting to the camera? Is it just a case of being far away with a zoom lens? As soon as I get a camera (either a proper one or my phone) out, the subject immediately reacts and changes the moment. I see awesome close-up portrait pictures of people who seem totally unaware that they are being photgraphed. I'd like to take more pictures of when I am out with my friends, but they go all shy on me.

2. On a related note, when you are at an event, say a big birthday party, how do you reconcile the fact that you are there to enjoy yourself, but want to document the event too? I always feel that if I start getting my camera out, then I am no longer participating in the event. It's a psychological question, I guess.

3. Any recommendations on good evening/weekend courses (central London) for learning digital photgraphy (composition, lighting, etc)?

Thanks all.
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1. You could check out 85mm Street Photography, he has two PDF documents which are free and some sample videos of shooting on the street:
http://www.85mm.ch
Kinda risky depending on where you're shooting...

2. I suppose intermingle and enjoy yourself, don't be too impsoing by not saying much and sticking a camera in people's faces ~ When you're chatting and people are enjoing themselves it would be easier to swing the camera up and get a rather natural shot IMO.

3. Unsure on courses, but there are some good videos on Kelby Training ~ http://kelbytraining.com/
No everyones cup of tea but some good info in some of the videos, like watching the non nonsense Jay Maisel.
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[quote name='Commander Jameson' timestamp='1327963946' post='8415820']
I've got a couple of questions that fit in here. These are coming from the standpoint of a beginner photographer.

1. How do you take pictures of people without them reacting to the camera? Is it just a case of being far away with a zoom lens? As soon as I get a camera (either a proper one or my phone) out, the subject immediately reacts and changes the moment. I see awesome close-up portrait pictures of people who seem totally unaware that they are being photgraphed. I'd like to take more pictures of when I am out with my friends, but they go all shy on me.

2. On a related note, when you are at an event, say a big birthday party, how do you reconcile the fact that you are there to enjoy yourself, but want to document the event too? I always feel that if I start getting my camera out, then I am no longer participating in the event. It's a psychological question, I guess.

3. Any recommendations on good evening/weekend courses (central London) for learning digital photgraphy (composition, lighting, etc)?

Thanks all.
[/quote]


I'm extremely lucky to have one of London's best street photographers as a member of my camera club, Dave Mason ([url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrmay/"]http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrmay/[/url]). He gave a talk last week and answered your first question. He said to lose your DSLR, the minute people see one they react differently and he said it's even worse if you're a distance away and using a zoom lens. Once you've been clocked people assume you're up to no good. He goes for a small compact and said people just don't react to them, and to prove a point showed photos from Trafalgar Square when he was right next to people and they just didn't pay him any attention. A big camera makes people more concious of what you're up to, and he also pointed out that the quality of compacts these days are bloody good.

It also sort of answers you're third question - by joining a camera club I've learnt more than any book or online tutorial would ever teach me through other people in the club. A lot cheaper than doing a course and you get a nice social aspect from it too.
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I've recently been fucking around with various light sources and long exposures and had an idea that I want to try. I want to stick some small LED lights on some snails and then let them do their thing in the garden and try and capture it on a veeeeeeerrrrry long exposure. What sort of lights could I get to achieve this?
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[quote name='neal before zod' timestamp='1328125754' post='8419685']
I'm extremely lucky to have one of London's best street photographers as a member of my camera club, Dave Mason ([url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrmay/"]http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrmay/[/url]). He gave a talk last week and answered your first question. He said to lose your DSLR, the minute people see one they react differently and he said it's even worse if you're a distance away and using a zoom lens. Once you've been clocked people assume you're up to no good. He goes for a small compact and said people just don't react to them, and to prove a point showed photos from Trafalgar Square when he was right next to people and they just didn't pay him any attention. A big camera makes people more concious of what you're up to, and he also pointed out that the quality of compacts these days are bloody good.

It also sort of answers you're third question - by joining a camera club I've learnt more than any book or online tutorial would ever teach me through other people in the club. A lot cheaper than doing a course and you get a nice social aspect from it too.
[/quote]

A camera club sounds like a cracking idea! I had no idea there were such things. Will start looking around. Thanks for the tips, neal.
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[quote name='neal before zod' timestamp='1328125754' post='8419685']
He said to lose your DSLR...He goes for a small compact...
[/quote]

Gah, don't say that! I've been toying with getting a decent compact / interchangeable lens camera for general carrying around duties and this kind of solid logic can only help to dent my bank balance.
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[quote name='Commander Jameson' timestamp='1327963946' post='8415820']
I've got a couple of questions that fit in here. These are coming from the standpoint of a beginner photographer.

1. How do you take pictures of people without them reacting to the camera? Is it just a case of being far away with a zoom lens? As soon as I get a camera (either a proper one or my phone) out, the subject immediately reacts and changes the moment. I see awesome close-up portrait pictures of people who seem totally unaware that they are being photgraphed. I'd like to take more pictures of when I am out with my friends, but they go all shy on me.

2. On a related note, when you are at an event, say a big birthday party, how do you reconcile the fact that you are there to enjoy yourself, but want to document the event too? I always feel that if I start getting my camera out, then I am no longer participating in the event. It's a psychological question, I guess.

3. Any recommendations on good evening/weekend courses (central London) for learning digital photgraphy (composition, lighting, etc)?

Thanks all.
[/quote]

1. By the time someone has noticed me I've either taken the picture and they're too late or I've missed the picture I wanted so it doesn't matter. If they notice me I either pretend to be photographing something behind/in front of them or more usually I wave or give them a nod. That tends to throw people off. I've been accused of paedophilia a few times, but never with much determination and I've definitely never had violence aimed towards me. I've always been on my own and I've almost always been using a large DSLR, albeit with a prime lens. (Dapple - I don't think you need to buy one for that reason.)

Basically, be self-conscious from a distance with a zoom lens and you'll look like you're up to no good and that's a bad thing. Be confident and friendly (personally, I'd say whilst using with a prime lens) nearby people and they'll not have much of a problem. If they do have a problem and really really insist you delete it, just do it.

[spoiler]Evil pro-tip: Remember, if you delete a photo and then don't put any more pictures on the card you will almost certainly be able to recover it later.[/spoiler]

But they won't. Because, the thing that is often forgotten, people quite like being photographed.

2. If there is a way, I don't know how. I'm either a photographer or I'm not.

3. The brother-in-law of someone I know runs a night walk for photographers through London every month. I'll find the details for you.
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Vaguely relevant. I turned an interesting day out with Leica into an indulgent article. Touches on the discreet-ness question. Let's not talk about that cost eh?

http://blog.richardwhitelock.com/2012/01/leica_experience/
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[quote name='Rev' timestamp='1328130325' post='8419847']
Dapple - I don't think you need to buy one for that reason
[/quote]

Yeah, it's more about the ease of carrying it around with me than anything else. One of the plusses about my Sony A77 is that the articulating screen means it's easy to shoot with the camera around my neck so it's not always obvious that I'm shooting. But I keep coming back to the adage 'the best camera is the one you have with you' - the A77 is just too big to carry to and from work every day and I keep seeing opportunities that are passing me by.

That said, I think I've just talked myself into taking it to work with me and seeing how it goes.
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Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Leica. Such beautiful objects. There was a documentary about life magazine on bbc4 a while back fronted by Rankin and he was toting a Leica dSLR like it was a compact, I had a look out of curiosity, it cost as much as my car. Crazy
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[quote name='Dapple' timestamp='1328132652' post='8419921']
Yeah, it's more about the ease of carrying it around with me than anything else. One of the plusses about my Sony A77 is that the articulating screen means it's easy to shoot with the camera around my neck so it's not always obvious that I'm shooting. But I keep coming back to the adage 'the best camera is the one you have with you' - the A77 is just too big to carry to and from work every day and I keep seeing opportunities that are passing me by.

That said, I think I've just talked myself into taking it to work with me and seeing how it goes.
[/quote]

Yeah, I own a GF2 as well as DSLR and there (obviously) are definitely benefits on the size front. I'm not entirely convinced that having a camera you have to hold out in front of you is more discreet though. Plus it seems a bit more amateurish and if I couldn't tell the difference I'd be much more put out by someone who isn't A Photographer taking my picture.

[quote name='And' timestamp='1328133190' post='8419944']
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Leica. Such beautiful objects. There was a documentary about life magazine on bbc4 a while back fronted by Rankin and he was toting a Leica dSLR like it was a compact, I had a look out of curiosity, it cost as much as my car. Crazy
[/quote]

I don't like their DSLR at all. It's lumpy and odd. Pretty good (although not exactly mind-numbing), but I couldn't come close to ever justifying it even if the price became small change. Plus Rankin is a dick and a bit shit imho - obviously he has taken some fantastic pictures, but he's a bit like Bailey without the flair. The documentary about Life you're talking about would have been fantastic if it wasn't for Rankin, some of the photographers he was speaking to are amazing. Watching Burk Uzzle stand around and do nothing before taking a few quick snaps silently whilst Rankin did handstands as he directed his assistant told as much of a story as was needed, really.

Well worth watching though.

And, since I never need much of an excuse to link to it:

[url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life"]http://images.google.com/hosted/life[/url]

The Life Archives on Google. Perhaps not the best thing on the internet, but it's well up there.
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How open are camera clubs? Seen there are a couple in Southend but nervous about how welcoming they may actually be. What are your experiences?
I have my body, 18-55mm and my Tamron 70-300mm, but that will be it for a while. Would I be struggling to keep up with anything they do?
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Depends on the club. The one near me is mostly old people only and with an appalling general standard, sadly so google and see what yours is like. Your equipment definitely won't be a problem, although I'd buy the cheapo Canon 50mm to add to what you've got as that can cover a lot of uses that would come up in a camera club. Portraits, street photography and a load more things it's very much a go-to lens - for £75ish new it's amazing.
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[quote name='Rev' timestamp='1328140155' post='8420083']
Depends on the club. The one near me is mostly old people only and with an appalling general standard, sadly so google and see what yours is like. Your equipment definitely won't be a problem, although I'd buy the cheapo Canon 50mm to add to what you've got as that can cover a lot of uses that would come up in a camera club. Portraits, street photography and a load more things it's very much a go-to lens - for £75ish new it's amazing.
[/quote]

Thanks. A 50mm is one I am looking for next, at least three months away.
Thanks for the advice.

Really enjoying the camera. I want to get out more though,
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Don't let they put you off joining the camera club now though if it looks decent!
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[quote name='bradigor' timestamp='1328139255' post='8420073']
How open are camera clubs? Seen there are a couple in Southend but nervous about how welcoming they may actually be. What are your experiences?
I have my body, 18-55mm and my Tamron 70-300mm, but that will be it for a while. Would I be struggling to keep up with anything they do?
[/quote]

I didn't join my nearest camera club, just because the average ago was post-retirement and their online gallery was pretty damned dull. I have to travel a bit further for mine, but the standard of photography is a lot better, they do a lot more outings and photo sessions (and have their own studio that's free to members) and there's people there who are very willing to share their experience (and software!). Don't worry at all about what equipment you have - at mine it goes from people who have compacts right up to top end DSLRs. When I joined I was still using my old Fuji bridge camera at the time and no-one really cares what you're using, and they'll even offer you help to get the best out of what you have.

If you're in or near SE London I can highly recommend Aperture Woolwich: [url="http://www.woolwichphotographic.com/"]http://www.woolwichphotographic.com/[/url]

We've got an exhibition on until the end of February at the Elixir gallery in the QE hospital that you might want to check out, or just have a look here to see what's on display: [url="http://www.woolwichphotographic.com/elixir.html"]http://www.woolwichp...com/elixir.html[/url]

One thing that has really helped get my arse in gear are the regular competitions - we have a DPI and a print competition running throughout the year, and on Tuesday I got 1st and 2nd place with a couple of mine (including one I put on here and asked for a title!).
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Thanks,

Generally what are the costs of clubs? is there a monthly sub or anything like that? Or does it vary from club to club.

Woolwich is too far for me to get to, but will start looking a bit further afield.
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This is a cracking documentary:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lyUkVqiHDOs"]http://www.youtube.c...d&v=lyUkVqiHDOs[/url]

It's well over an hour, so you'll need some time and it's a bit...Tame (although in a good relaxing way). But it's got some great stuff in there, if only because (obviously) Ansel Adams is rather ace.

My favourite of his, by quite a long way (huge picture alert):

[url="http://genevaanderson.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/15_adams-winter-sunrise.jpg"]http://genevaanderso...ter-sunrise.jpg[/url]

EDIT: Reading up on it, it turns out the field the deer in is now a golf course. Sad laugh:

[url="http://maps.google.co.uk/local_url?q=http://www.mtwhitneygolfclub.com/&dq=Mount+Whitney+Golf+Course,+South+Main+Street,+Lone+Pine,+CA,+United+States&f=q&source=s_q&output=js&hl=en&geocode=&abauth=e3ecf49d:Lp45EtlEcvyMvNVLlxl9L8mUY1Y&aq=0&oq=mount+whitney+golf&vps=1&jsv=393b&sll=36.13122,-119.132996&sspn=1.641537,3.56781&vpsrc=6&ved=0CA8Q5AQ&sa=X&ei=37srT4bdNMqMjweu8pWJAQ&s=ANYYN7mlF6UzAYsx3_aIADkuC4Cv-dm2DQ"]mtwhitneygolfclub.com[/url]
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Just watched the first couple of minutes of that but I'm in work, certainly seems worthy of sitting down and watching it this evening... Cheers for the link Rev.
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Would anyone be up for a little project?

I've had [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Photographers-Eye-Composition-Design-Digital/dp/1905814046/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328426407&sr=8-1]The Photographer's Eye[/url] for some time, and while I've dipped in and out of it, I've never really gone through and tried out each section in full.

I'm thinking about working through it, completing the various challenges listed, and taking a photo of my own for each of the compositional points discussed. I could do this on a blog, but it might be more interesting to do it here on the forum.

Does anyone else have this book (or fancies getting it), and would be interested in joining in? We could kick off in mid February, in a dedicated thread. Not too structured, just work out a few tasks from each section and compare results.
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