Wiper

The terrifying, never-ending (old) Star Trek thread - new movies and Discovery talk in the other, dedicated threads

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TBH that's offensive to the TV episodes :)

http://redlettermedi...k-insurrection/

(All the RLM Star Treks ones are worth a watch, not quite as biting as the Star Wars ones though. The Star Trek 2009 one is actually very interesting as he actually seems to like/explains why it works)

I don't have sound enabled here (or half an hour to spare); can you summarise the key points of contention?

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I'm convinced that nemesis is a subliminal ad for the xbox 360

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You can keep your moose-faced Borg whore. I'm on season 7 of DS9 right now, and there's only one woman for me... the super cute adorable Ezri Dax.

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Only me that finds Jennifer Lien (Kes) more attractive than Jerry Ryan (7 of 9)?

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The Japanese wife of O'Brien? Although not stunning, there's something about her that makes her better than all the other women on the programme.

What was it again?

Oh yes

Japanese
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The Japanese wife of O'Brien? Although not stunning, there's something about her that makes her better than all the other women on the programme.

What was it again?

Oh yes

Demora_Sulu,_2293.jpg

oh my!

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You can keep your moose-faced Borg whore. I'm on season 7 of DS9 right now, and there's only one woman for me... the super cute adorable Ezri Dax.

+1, my good man.

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The Japanese wife of O'Brien? Although not stunning, there's something about her that makes her better than all the other women on the programme.

What was it again?

Oh yes

She's actually got her shit together unlike a lot of the Trek cast and is completely devoted and forgiving. She also loves horticulture and there's nothing more attractive than a woman with a passion. She's so cool.

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Only me that finds Jennifer Lien (Kes) more attractive than Jerry Ryan (7 of 9)?

Do yourself a favour and don't look for modern pictures of her. Ocampa do not age well.

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I take back my previous comments regarding Voyager. I'm halfway through season four and it has got really enjoyable.

Yeah, you're at the high point. Most of 4 and some of 5 are OK, then it nose-dives horribly for the final couple of seasons.

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Nemesis at least proved that not all equal-numbered movies were as equal as others.

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I don't get all the hate for Nemesis. I rather like it! Exciting, dramatic, emotional. Shinzon's a pretty cool villain, both in terms of conception and execution. Epic space battles too. What's not to like?

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I don't get all the hate for Nemesis. I rather like it! Exciting, dramatic, emotional. Shinzon's a pretty cool villain, both in terms of conception and execution. Epic space battles too. What's not to like?

Mostly the bit where Troi gets raped and Picard tells her she'll just have to get over it and do her job.

Oh, and the way it just ignores any character development made over the previous years.

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I'm finished! With DS9, I mean. It's done! All 7 seasons! Excellent stuff.

The only problem was that I got an itching to watch some other Ron Moore stuff, perhaps a bit grittier and darker than DS9, hmm what could that be? Yes, I bought the whole BSG boxset.

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I also don't get the hate for nemesis. For me, first contact is much poorer

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Nemesis:

I can watch Nemesis just for fun, but I'm very aware that it's quite shit. The main problem is that it twists TNG into such standard sci-fi action movie fare that the heart of TNG is unrecognisable. The movies already have the problem of accommodating Patrick Stewart as an action lead, but it's taken to an extreme in Nemesis. He takes every opportunity to climb into vehicles and twat around in them like some kind of Shakespearean Jeremy Clarkson. He rams the Enterprise into the Scimitar like a bad case of space rage.

Nemesis is a limp rip-off of The Wrath of Khan with none of the skill that made Kirk and Khan's conflict so compelling. The worst action cliche of all is: "This time it's personal!" And that's what Shinzon is all about. Why did the enemy have to be a clone of Picard? It doesn't actually mean much to the story. And why introduce Remans when the Romulans were already ripe for deeper exploration? Bat-people look more like baddies I guess.

They chose an action director who knew nothing about Star Trek, which can sometimes be a good move. Insurrection failed because it was too familiar and cosy, so they wanted a fresh new direction. Unfortunately Stuart Baird filled Nemesis with tired old action tropes and cliches. There are corridor shootouts lifted straight from Star Wars -- frigging Star Wars! -- probably because that was Baird's only point of reference. Riker and the baddie fight on a gantry and guess what? The baddie falls to his death. Tropes like this are what make action movies boring and hollow.

Some weirdness:

Why did Shinzon bury B-4 in pieces? After all, Shinzon's overall plan was to let the Enterprise crew find B-4, activate him, then B-4 would walk around the Enterprise and access computer terminals as Shinzon's spy. So why dismember B-4 and bury him around the desert like a puzzle? What if the Enterprise crew didn't reassemble him, or just activated his head? because intrigue that's why...

And why would Shinzon bury B-4 on a planet with hostile natives who could have killed Picard and co. before they got back to the ship? Because action that's why...

Shinzon needs a blood transfusion from Picard so that he doesn't go all veiny and die. So why does he make the Enterprise wait for 17 hours before decloaking? Then why does he invite Picard to dinner and not take his blood? Then when he's actually got Picard chained up, why does he mince around like a baddie and still not have much interest in using Picard's blood?

Why did Picard have a shaved head at the Academy, when we've seen in the past that he had a full head of hair?

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Some weirdness:

Why did Shinzon bury B-4 in pieces? After all, Shinzon's overall plan was to let the Enterprise crew find B-4, activate him, then B-4 would walk around the Enterprise and access computer terminals as Shinzon's spy. So why dismember B-4 and bury him around the desert like a puzzle? What if the Enterprise crew didn't reassemble him, or just activated his head? because intrigue that's why...

And why would Shinzon bury B-4 on a planet with hostile natives who could have killed Picard and co. before they got back to the ship? Because action that's why...

Shinzon needs a blood transfusion from Picard so that he doesn't go all veiny and die. So why does he make the Enterprise wait for 17 hours before decloaking? Then why does he invite Picard to dinner and not take his blood? Then when he's actually got Picard chained up, why does he mince around like a baddie and still not have much interest in using Picard's blood?

Why did Picard have a shaved head at the Academy, when we've seen in the past that he had a full head of hair?

I see someone else watched the Red Letter Media review of the film, then... ;)

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He rams the Enterprise into the Scimitar like a bad case of space rage.

That was Deanna crashing the Enterprise. Again. I don't know why they ever let her sit there.

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I dunno, I kind of like how it's episodic. You always go in knowing where you stand with the characters and you can watch them out of order. I get my more modern fill of doing things from DS9. The danger of doing serials is that often they'll do ridiculous things just to keep the momentum going (Lost etc.) TNG is such a product of its time and it's charming for that.

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I dunno, I kind of like how it's episodic. You always go in knowing where you stand with the characters and you can watch them out of order. I get my more modern fill of doing things from DS9. The danger of doing serials is that often they'll do ridiculous things just to keep the momentum going (Lost etc.) TNG is such a product of its time and it's charming for that.

But TNG had ended and we had 7 years of random, standalone episodes. DS9 was making waves with its storylines, yet Voyager suffered greatly because they did nothing with it. Season 1 is actually a fairly good start because throughout there's lots of hints at them running out of stuff, ship repairs etc, supplies are short. Yet by S2 everything is just forgotten and nothing ever changes, Voyager done right wouldn't have been that difficult, they even showed it was possible in the Year of Hell 2 parter where the ship is half destroyed over a period of time.

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I'm finished! With DS9, I mean. It's done! All 7 seasons! Excellent stuff.

The only problem was that I got an itching to watch some other Ron Moore stuff, perhaps a bit grittier and darker than DS9, hmm what could that be? Yes, I bought the whole BSG boxset.

Oh... dear.

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Watched Star Trek III this afternoon on the telly. It's a film that's less than the sum of it's parts, but there are some great scenes in it, and although it's considered one of the 'duff' ones it's still better than any of the Next Gen films.

Also Saavik totally boinked teenage Spock didn't she?

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Oh... dear.

What's up? I watched Battlestar Galactica when it was on. I know exactly what it's like. I just felt like rewatching it (on blu-ray this time, which should beat the lo-res TV rips I watched back then).

I got the idea whilst watching DS9. Even though I greatly enjoyed DS9 and it's a bit darker than other Star Treks, it still struck me as a bit... nicey. All Star Treks are kind of easy-to-watch television for kids of all ages -- it can never get too adult or serious or grim. It's quite theatrical (some people describe it as "heightened reality"). Klingons and Ferengi are so broad. Sure there are themes of genocide, terrorism, religious fundamentalism and political corruption... but it's played out with rubber-headed aliens booming in loud theatrical voices on plastic sets. All Klingons wear the same costume and have the same personality and drink blood wine. All Cardassians wear the same costume and have the same personality and drink kanar. Sometimes Star Trek is just damn silly. How would you feel if a normal person caught you watching a Grand Nagus episode? Yeah.

So with DS9 finished, I think I need something a bit darker.

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Sometimes Star Trek is just damn silly. How would you feel if a normal person caught you watching a Grand Nagus episode? Yeah.

I'd tell them to sit down and enjoy the sillyness. The Magnificent Ferengi is one of my favourite DS9 episodes.

The rest of your post I strongly disagree with as well. You say it can never get too adult or serious or grim, but many fine DS9 episodes were just that. Heck, even goody two shoes TNG had an episode debating the merits of suicide, which is one of the most adult and serious things you can do on tv.

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But TNG had ended and we had 7 years of random, standalone episodes. DS9 was making waves with its storylines, yet Voyager suffered greatly because they did nothing with it. Season 1 is actually a fairly good start because throughout there's lots of hints at them running out of stuff, ship repairs etc, supplies are short. Yet by S2 everything is just forgotten and nothing ever changes, Voyager done right wouldn't have been that difficult, they even showed it was possible in the Year of Hell 2 parter where the ship is half destroyed over a period of time.

Oh I didn't see the bit about Voyager. Yeah I agree. It seems very strange that that wasn't serialised because the entire premise is based around 1 single storyline!

What's up? I watched Battlestar Galactica when it was on. I know exactly what it's like. I just felt like rewatching it (on blu-ray this time, which should beat the lo-res TV rips I watched back then).

I got the idea whilst watching DS9. Even though I greatly enjoyed DS9 and it's a bit darker than other Star Treks, it still struck me as a bit... nicey. All Star Treks are kind of easy-to-watch television for kids of all ages -- it can never get too adult or serious or grim. It's quite theatrical (some people describe it as "heightened reality"). Klingons and Ferengi are so broad. Sure there are themes of genocide, terrorism, religious fundamentalism and political corruption... but it's played out with rubber-headed aliens booming in loud theatrical voices on plastic sets. All Klingons wear the same costume and have the same personality and drink blood wine. All Cardassians wear the same costume and have the same personality and drink kanar. Sometimes Star Trek is just damn silly. How would you feel if a normal person caught you watching a Grand Nagus episode? Yeah.

So with DS9 finished, I think I need something a bit darker.

I successfully got a normal person into DS9 to the point where she cried at one of Warf's scenes! She was a real socialite. Ballet dancer, clubber, drinker, loads of friends. It's my greatest accomplishment so far.

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I'd tell them to sit down and enjoy the sillyness. The Magnificent Ferengi is one of my favourite DS9 episodes.

The rest of your post I strongly disagree with as well. You say it can never get too adult or serious or grim, but many fine DS9 episodes were just that.

I suppose a few DS9 episodes surprised me with some dark stuff. You're occasionally reminded of the full extent of the atrocities during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, and that Kira was a terrorist fuelled by racial hatred who happily killed Cardassians and also Bajoran collaborators. Episodes like Duet are superb. But unfortunately there's quite a lot of camp in this story -- Dukat is allowed to become a charismatic pantomime villain who you almost root for because he's such fun, and the Kira/Dukat relationship almost becomes flirtatious (something that Nana Visitor thankfully protested about). That's what I mean when I say DS9 never really gets adult or serious or grim. As I watched, I became slightly frustrated at how nerfed the show had to be most of the time: no swearing, no sex, and everything done as allegory with rubber-headed aliens. I'm not trying to be negative... it's just that good modern television is now made by channels like HBO, where we get used to things like The Wire, Game of Thrones, Deadwood, etc. 1990s TV is a bit soft and old-fashioned by comparison.

But a few choice grim moments that were successful:

O'Brien Must Suffer episodes like Hard Time,

which leads to a scene with O'Brien holding a phaser up to his mouth and having to be talked out of suicide

Far Beyond the Stars

which tackles racism so directly that Jake can even say the n-word

In the Pale Moonlight

"So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it."

It's Only a Paper Moon

which deals with post-traumatic stress disorder and how soldiers deal with war. I wouldn't say episodes like The Siege of AR-558 are totally successful at showing the horrors of war -- like I say, Star Trek can't go too far -- but this follow-up for Nog was quite compelling

Somewhere around the end of season 7:

When Damar is informed that his wife and children have been killed, and he has been learning the true atrocities that occupying forces commit: they'll put women and children in military installations so that if you blow them up you'll be a hated terrorist. They'll kill your family. Damar asks: "What kind of state tolerates the murder of innocent women and children? What kind of people give those orders?" Kira can't help responding: "Yeah, Damar, what kind of people give those orders?" You don't know whether to be mad at Kira for being so insensitive, or punch the air because she's totally justified.

So yes. DS9 has its moments of depth and its explorations of deep themes. That's why I'll rewatch episodes like the spoilered ones above and remember DS9 as probably the best Trek show.

But then of course there are the other 100+ episodes of "Moooooogie!", and Leeta's bad acting, and Zek screeching like a retard, and Martok drinking barrels of blood wine, and Liquidator Brunt, and Odo "harumph"ing at Quark, and Miles & Julian's bromance, and how simplistically silly the Prophets Vs Pah-wraiths thing really is, and how the Klingons just aren't believable as a functioning society of people, and how a huge galactic war is basically down to the fact that orange goo people have a persecution complex, and the old Trek problem that everyone belonging to a certain species wears the same clothes and has the same personality and drinks the same drink. And I never thought Garak was as deep or interesting as everyone seems to think! (that's worth a neg surely)

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