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The Official Rllmuk Poker Strategy Thread


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#1 Pants McSkill

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 06:47 AM

Hello and Welcome to the Rllmuk Poker Strategy Thread!

Here will be a place for beginners and experts alike to share tips, discuss points and talk about hands.

I'd like to invite the resident 'Grinders' to write an article each on a particular part of Poker strategy, which will be indexed below. It can be on tournament play or cash, software or bank roll guides, it can be any part of poker you have a good handle on that you think people might benefit from.


I'd also like to invite anyone who plays at all to start posting hand histories in here. It can be any hand you weren't sure about, whether you lost a bunch of chips or you made a fold you weren't happy with, or even won a load of chips by sucking out! For any player who doesn't already do this, it's a fantastic way of improving your game as other players can highlight areas you don't even know you're weak in. And you also improve by reading other players posts and working out what you would do in the same situation.

And this is a very, very friendly place. If some terminology pops up you don't know like 'the CO limps' or '10NL', just ask away and someone will happily clarify.
In the cases above 'CO' refers to 'The Cut-Off' - the position of a player sat one to the right of the Button, two to the right of the player in the Small Blind and three to the right of the player sat in the Big Blind.
'10NL' refers to the stakes a cash game is played at, and is denoted by 100 times the big blind. In this case, 10NL refers to a cash game where the small blind is 5 and the big blind is 10 - 100 times the big blind would be $10, so 10NL.
5NL is 2/5 blinds and 200NL is $1/$2 blinds.


With a bit of luck, we'll all be millionaires thanks to this thread. :)


Guides:
Pants McSkill's guide to betting!
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#2 Commander Jameson

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 09:01 AM

Great idea for a thread, Pants.

I can recommend the FlopTurnRiver Hand Convertor.

Turns this:

PokerStars Game #41409600143: Tournament #254395265, $5.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2010/03/19 19:12:33 ET
Table '254395265 1' 10-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Mercyless72 (1520 in chips)
Seat 2: Soviet Pilot (1460 in chips)
Seat 3: DanDaggerman (1460 in chips)
Seat 4: Jympi (1540 in chips)
Seat 5: BRB72 (1480 in chips)
Seat 6: HOUDINIgana (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: sparky41 (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: sotillo89 (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: FROST MILES (1380 in chips)
Seat 10: clemdog_1983 (1660 in chips)
BRB72: posts small blind 10
HOUDINIgana: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DanDaggerman [Ts Kh]
sparky41: folds
sotillo89: folds
FROST MILES: folds
clemdog_1983: folds
Mercyless72: calls 20
Soviet Pilot: folds
DanDaggerman: calls 20
Jympi: calls 20
BRB72: folds
HOUDINIgana: checks
*** FLOP *** [As Qs 9d]
HOUDINIgana: checks
Mercyless72: bets 40
DanDaggerman: calls 40
Jympi: calls 40
HOUDINIgana: folds
*** TURN *** [As Qs 9d] [Js]
Mercyless72: bets 40
DanDaggerman: calls 40
Jympi: calls 40
*** RIVER *** [As Qs 9d Js] [Ks]
Mercyless72: bets 40
DanDaggerman: raises 40 to 80
Jympi: folds
Mercyless72: folds
Uncalled bet (40) returned to DanDaggerman
DanDaggerman collected 410 from pot
DanDaggerman: shows [Ts Kh] (a Royal Flush)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 410 | Rake 0
Board [As Qs 9d Js Ks]
Seat 1: Mercyless72 folded on the River
Seat 2: Soviet Pilot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: DanDaggerman collected (410)
Seat 4: Jympi (button) folded on the River
Seat 5: BRB72 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: HOUDINIgana (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: sparky41 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: sotillo89 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: FROST MILES folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: clemdog_1983 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

into this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 5.4 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Posted Image

saw flop | saw showdown

MP2 (t1520)
MP3 (t1460)
Hero (CO) (t1460)
Button (t1540)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
UTG+2 (t1380)
MP1 (t1660)

Hero's M: 48.67

Posted Image

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10Posted Image, KPosted Image
4 folds, MP2 calls t20, 1 fold, Hero calls t20, Button calls t20, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (t90) APosted Image, QPosted Image, 9Posted Image (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets t40, Hero calls t40, Button calls t40, 1 fold

Turn: (t210) JPosted Image (3 players)
MP2 bets t40, Hero calls t40, Button calls t40

River: (t330) KPosted Image (3 players)
MP2 bets t40, Hero raises to t80, 2 folds

Total pot: t410

Results:
Hero had 10Posted Image, KPosted Image (royal flush).
Outcome: Hero won t410
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#3 Billy Brown

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:44 AM

Okay, here's a hand to kick things off. I'm rolled for 100NL but for a few reaosns I've been playing some microstakes 5NL and 10NL over the past week -- partly becuase while I consider myself a solid tournament player I am, in contrast, a very swingy cash game player. Also becuase there's a chance I'm going to completely drain my online poker accounts soon and start again from scratch, so I'm interested to know what kind of profit I can expect to make should I start again and try and make a real go of grinding cash games from the bottom levels up.

Anyway, here's a hand that worked out superbly for me but which could very easily have played out differently. I thought it might be an interesting illustration of how making a lot of money from a hand doesn't necessarily mean that you played it right. I'll add my thoughts/questions after each significant piece of action:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($5.90)
UTG+1 ($5)
MP1 ($1.59)
MP2 ($3.63)
CO ($8.99)
Button ($3.20)
SB ($3.10)
Hero (BB) ($6.49)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8Posted Image, 9Posted Image
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, SB calls $0.03, Hero checks

So here's my first quandry. With four limpers there's a case for throwing out a raise here and trying to take the pot down pre-flop. While my 98o is the kind of hand that should be nicely concealed should I flop a monster, how confident can I be if I make one pair on the flop? That said, at 5NL the limpers often aren't going to put down their raggy aces or suited cards to a pre-flop raise. I elect to see a cheap flop this time -- but I'd be interested to know how often would you raise in this spot and how often you'd simply choose to see a free flop? Does the level of play dictate your decision or am I letting that get in the way or optimal poker?

Flop: ($0.25) 6Posted Image, 9Posted Image, QPosted Image (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.20, 1 fold

Okay, we've hit middle pair and a mediocre runner-runner flush draw. Certainly enough to bet with and see where we're at. With a small re-raise and a call I decide to see another card. This is a pretty marginal call but I figure this could easily be a re-raise with a flush draw and the call could be with top pair or similar -- if I hit big then I could probably get paid off by at least one of these guys.

Turn: ($1.25) 7Posted Image (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.40, CO calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

This is where it gets interesting and also where I make my most questionable decision. Having put at least one of my two opponents on a decent flush draw there's a chance that I'm already beat and should toss my hand. With that in mind I think the check is fine. Following the bet and call, though, it seems I can call here, make a straight or a flush on the river and still lose. If I'm even 90% sure one of these guys has a decent flush at this point then this is obviously a horrible call. However, there's enough doubt in my mind -- one could be over playing top pair, the other could have two pair or a set -- that with my straight and flush possibilities then there's a chance the call is good. I also, of course, have the straight flush draw and the way these guys are acting there's a great chance that I'm going to stack at least one of them if I happen to hit it. I call. Again, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on that decision.

River: ($2.45) 5Posted Image (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.75, CO raises to $8.24 (All-In), Hero calls $5.74 (All-In), MP2 calls $2.13 (All-In)

Total pot: $16.81 | Rake: $1.12

Bingo bango. The hand plays itself to a certain extent from here on in but I guess it's a risk checking the river here. However, I was pretty sure one of these guys would bet the river giving me the opportunity to extract a little more value than if I simply bet out first. As it happens I probably would have been able to get it all-in either way.

So yeah, I'd like to know how you guys would have played the hand. Any comments welcome, as well as guesses of what the two villains' hands were.
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#4 Commander Jameson

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 07:02 AM

Interesting hand.

I don't mind the check pre-flop. That's exactly what I'd do. I think I'd find it easier than you throwing away hands like this if they have only partially hit or if there is any kind of strong betting post-flop. I don't really use the BB-raise-to-a-set-of-limpers strategy as often as I should; partly because, as you say, it's quite hard to get people off any kind of raggy hand. How much would you have bet here to ensure that? I'm thinking 6xBB min?

Post-flop, the pot is giving you approx 5:1 odds to call before the turn. I think, considering you have hit something, it's a fair call.

Post-turn, again, I think the pot is giving you the odds to call. $0.40 to win a pot of $2.05? The other players are not certainly raising enough for you to be priced out.

I'm putting the CO on A2s and MP2 on QJo. If I was CO and with two players in and a nut flush, I'd just be calling the turn too. MP2's bets are far too small for my liking.

I think this is the kind of hand you can play like this once in a while. rather than make it a standard play. If the betting from the other players was higher, I would have been laying this down; either after the flop or turn.
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#5 mayor_mike_haggar

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 10:20 AM

preflop: fine

flop lead is alright, but the call is probably closer to marginal, though we do have some backdoor draws but our equity could be really poor if there's a bigger flush draw. At these levels it's much easier just to get paid off with top pair and solid kicker than messing around with medium pairs.

the hand basically plays itself from the turn, though I really wouldn't be surprised if we ended up 2-outing someone or something. there are bigger made flushes, bigger pairs, 8-10 for a double gutter having hit, we're never ahead. As for their actual hands I've no idea, you can never put micro players on sensible ranges.
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#6 rjpageuk

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 01:13 PM

preflop: I would never raise here. At these stakes you money comes from value betting not stealing, as no one is folding pre so all you are doing is bloating the pot with a weak hand out of position (a recipe for disaster). Your raising range here should be premiums + big card hands (most broadways). Basically hands you can value bet top pair with. I wouldnt raise suited connectors here either.

flop: I would just check/fold here. I dont like leading. Even though you have middle pair you are in a 5 way pot, and even against 4 other random hands you have less than 30% equity and most of the time you arent going to be able to get to showdown. What is your plan for the hand if you dont just take it down on the flop? You are out of position and simply arent going to be able to play the turn profitably against what is likely to be multiple callers. I would definitely muck to the raise, you have so little equity against a raising range on that flop especially after another person calls.

turn: This is a pretty close to a fold too, depending on tendancies of villians, you are getting a great price but now have an even weaker draw. You get yourself in this crappy spot by the flop play really. It just isnt +EV to be playing a calling game at these stakes with marginal draws/weak made hand against multiple villians.


I like the idea of posting up some strategy posts, I will try to write one about preflop play which would be a good starting point.
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#7 rjpageuk

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 01:24 PM

What do you guys think about this hand -

Villian is a 22/15/9% 3bet TAG with relatively standard stats

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($110.10)
Button ($103.50)
SB ($122.25)
BB ($168.55)
UTG ($111.20)
MP ($227.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10Posted Image, 10Posted Image
UTG bets $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $3, 3 folds

Flop: ($7.50) QPosted Image, 8Posted Image, 6Posted Image (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($7.50) 10Posted Image (2 players)
UTG bets $4, Hero raises $17, UTG calls $13

River: ($41.50) JPosted Image (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $25, UTG raises $91.20 (All-In), Hero ???
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#8 tonymg

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:03 PM

His flop check seems weird, he's either hit it massively (QQ,88) or maybe playing AKo weakly, can't see him having AQ, Qx on this flop and not betting it. When he calls your reraise on the turn he must have something, with 2 flush draws out though surely he'd want to be reraising with his set. I'm checking the river, there's not much he can call you with that your beating (JT,88) and with the flush and straight hitting you've got a good show down hand, as played I'd reluctantly fold to his reraise on the river (if I was putting him on a absolute hand I'd say AK maybe suited with hearts). I'm not much of a holdem player so I'm probably completely wrong.
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#9 mayor_mike_haggar

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:45 PM

right, my hold em is rusty, but isn't this usually a 3bet in 6max, even vs an UTG open from a TAG? I assume he'd opening a range like big aces and broadway cards and pairs maybe 77+, which is a range we're ahead of.

His flop check looks interesting. I'd assume that all hands that whiffed like AK would bet out, as it's a relatively dry board. I guess AQ and KQ probably bet too. But what's he checking? Maybe a completely missed JT or suited connectors. QQ and 88 might also slowplay I guess. However these hands probably jam the turn, as does q10. When he bet/calls I suppose we can put him on something like a big draw, or combo of made hand and draw, so maybe ahkh, ah8h, kh9h, slowplayed j9 is perhaps in there but might just get it in since you're probably not folding.

I'm just going to assume that we're completely crushed on the river. Although it's a complete horror board we showed a lot of strength on the turn, and I very very much doubt that this guy is going to check/raise bluff the river, it's just not something that happens much as this level. Given that his range is weighted towards high cards and pairs, I think that we run into at least straights quite a lot of the time. I don't see a standard TAG playing 2 pair this way at all, and I think that we'd have got it in vs sets by now.

I bet this is where you show me a hero call vs 6c7c or something,
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#10 Pants McSkill

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:56 PM

Billy's Hand:

I think overall it's very, very marginal.

A good skill of a poker player is to adapt to changing table conditions and changing opponents. At 10NL, players who have already limped just don't fold to a raise PF. For that reason, I'm never, ever raising here at 10NL - and you shouldn't either when you start grinding it!

The only note I'd have not mentioned by others is on the river. Once we hit our straight flush, I'm shoving when first to act. if they're holding a heart, they're not folding. MP has played aggressively on both the flop and turn, so he's not going anywhere. The CO has called two streets of MP's aggressiveness and now that almost every draw has just hit, he's not going anywhere.

I think that we risk them checking behind more often than them calling, so it balances out to a shove for me.


Edit: A guess at their hands! God, I've got no clue with 10NLers. I'm going with 2pair or a set for MP and JT with at least one heart for the CO.
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#11 rjpageuk

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 11:37 PM

right, my hold em is rusty, but isn't this usually a 3bet in 6max, even vs an UTG open from a TAG? I assume he'd opening a range like big aces and broadway cards and pairs maybe 77+, which is a range we're ahead of.


We may be ahead of his range, but what are we doing if we are 4bet? Folding? I hate 3bet folding a hand as strong as TT, as I think we get more value by just calling especially in position. His raising range is tight (15% overall) so his UTG range is likely very tight, and he will just fold all the hands we are beating if we 3bet (except AK which will probably 4bet).

When he bet/calls I suppose we can put him on something like a big draw, or combo of made hand and draw, so maybe ahkh, ah8h, kh9h, slowplayed j9 is perhaps in there but might just get it in since you're probably not folding.


This guy shouldnt really have a hand like Ah8h, Kh9h or J9 in his range for opening UTG. Maybe he opens suited Aces, but probably not all of the time. This does make his calling range on the turn ridiculously tight.

I think that we run into at least straights quite a lot of the time. I don't see a standard TAG playing 2 pair this way at all, and I think that we'd have got it in vs sets by now...

I bet this is where you show me a hero call vs 6c7c or something,


Do you think he would c/shove a straight on this board? I am not sure. If he does c/shove any AK here it is a definite fold I think on the river.

I actually insta folded river and didnt think much about it until I reviewed my session and realised he has exactly 1 combo of hand that makes sense given his line (royal flush) which might make it a call. I didnt think this kind of guy would be capable of shoving a straight for value on the river.

I'm checking the river, there's not much he can call you with that your beating (JT,88) and with the flush and straight hitting you've got a good show down hand


I didnt ever even consider not betting this river although I guess it is worth considering. I think there are at least some combos of hands that are calling and I expected many draws that got there to lead the river as I am often checking behind here. This is another aspect that made me think maybe I should be calling this river. Dont forget my line makes little sense here - I check back flop and raise turn so I should be getting looked up pretty light.
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#12 mayor_mike_haggar

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 08:41 PM

I really think you're overestimating the tightness of his range a bit. Isn't stuff like A8s and maybe A9s and suited broadways in his UTG opening range? I thought that was kind of standard at this sort of level. He could be mixing it up and opening with a suited connector some of the time too and turn something like a pair+flush draw with 8h9h or something. If you look at pokerstove the top 15% of hands includes suited aces down to a7 and suited broadways down to k9 and qt. the top 10% still has hands like kts and jts in it. Also, against the top 15% tt has something like 56% equity, so by 3betting you're making a profit. His UTG range may be tighter, so perhaps it's closer, but I think in 6max games you can 3bet TT for value against an UTG open, obviously folding to a 4bet. Calling puts us in a bad spot when any number of overcards hits and he fires his inevitable c-bet.

I really don't see how you can ever call the river. I really don't expect a TAG at 100 to bluff-shove such a terrifying board on the river. Check-raise river bluffs require advanced thinking, deep stacks and interesting meta-game. In this spot, after you raise the turn he presumably knows you have something big and he's clearly expecting a river bet and probably that you don't fold. I'd assume he's not too scared of the backdoor straight, since these aren't as big of a thing in hold em as in plo. I think you played the hand fairly well tbh, certainly a fun spot.
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#13 Poet

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 08:29 AM

What Mike said. There is almost no way you're ahead on this river and A8s, etc are definitely part of your range if you're 15% PFR, even UTG. Personally, I'd reraise preflop and make it easier for myself post too.
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#14 rjpageuk

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 09:16 AM

What Mike said. There is almost no way you're ahead on this river and A8s, etc are definitely part of your range if you're 15% PFR, even UTG. Personally, I'd reraise preflop and make it easier for myself post too.


I play 25/22 and I dont raise suited aces UTG, my UTG opening range is about 11% of hands. This guy is considerably tighter than that, and if he is only playing 15% of hands from all positions I would be very surprised if he was playing more than 10% of hands UTG. I should look this up actually, as I have his stats at home, but 11% is any pair, AJo+, any suited broadway. If you add suited aces and KQo this comes up to 15% and there is no way he is playing the same range UTG as overall.

I am surprised at the suggested 3bet pre line, if he is a decent player (which he likely is by his stats) he will just fold every hand we are ahead of pre and 4bet every hand we are behind. If you are planning to 3bet simply to make him fold (very few decent players are calling 3bets OOP pre) you are much better off doing it with a hand like Ax, which at least has blockers to his 4betting range and isnt profitable to call with.

Unless he is very tight then it is likely to be +EV to 3bet pre (simply as he is folding enough) but it is a bit of a waste of a hand as good as TT.
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#15 mayor_mike_haggar

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 02:15 PM

Well, look on the bright side, if he's got kk and 4bets we have an easy laydown. But if we just call and the flop comes 972 and he bets flop, we call, then he bets a jack turn or a 5 turn, what do we do then? By 3betting we can get value from parts of his range we're ahead of when he calls (he'd probably call maybe AQs, kqs), and lose the minimum when he has a monster. we might even be able to bluff him off jacks. And if he 4bets AKs, we're still behind a likely 4bet range of AKs and qq+, so it's an easy fold.

3 betting also allows us to take control of the hand, which is never a bad thing right?
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#16 rjpageuk

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 02:47 PM

You are right in so much as really the answer depends on his 3bet calling range.

If we are facing an opponent that has a 3bet calling range which includes a decent number of combo of hands worse than TT then sure I completely agree with the 3bet. If we are facing a villian that rarely calls our 3bet then we are better off flatting pre.

It is an interesting topic, and I doubt I had enough hands on the guy to make a decent assumption either way. Maybe I give players a bit too much credit :).
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#17 mayor_mike_haggar

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 04:25 PM

Nah I think river play is good. You could always post it to one of the forums on 2+2 for analysis of people who play more nlhe than I do (none).
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#18 Poet

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 05:08 PM

I play 25/22 and I dont raise suited aces UTG, my UTG opening range is about 11% of hands. This guy is considerably tighter than that, and if he is only playing 15% of hands from all positions I would be very surprised if he was playing more than 10% of hands UTG. I should look this up actually, as I have his stats at home, but 11% is any pair, AJo+, any suited broadway. If you add suited aces and KQo this comes up to 15% and there is no way he is playing the same range UTG as overall.

Wow I'd like to see you play. You must raise and reraise pretty light in late position if you're playing 25/22 but not opening up with something like A8s UTG 6 handed.
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#19 Pants McSkill

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 07:20 PM

So I'm currently trying to work on getting more value out of hands, making sure I'm betting the maximum can get them to call, trying to get a bit more value out of marginal river situations, that sort of thing.

How often are we betting the River here, especially considering:
A: His chipstack in relation to the pot
B: This is a Knockout - each player has a $1 bounty on their heads.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 6.5 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t3510)
UTG+1 (t4640)
MP1 (t4970)
Hero (MP2) (t10690)
CO (t2290)
Button (t4135)
SB (t10400)
BB (t2380)

Hero's M: 71.27

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with APosted Image, 10Posted Image
UTG calls t100, 2 folds, Hero calls t100, 3 folds, BB checks

Flop: (t350) 8Posted Image, APosted Image, QPosted Image (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets t100, Hero raises to t300, BB calls t300, 1 fold

Turn: (t1050) 4Posted Image (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t800, BB calls t800

River: (t2650) 3Posted Image (2 players)
BB checks, Hero???


He didn't seem hugely passive - if he had Ace-higher-kicker I was certain he'd have raised Pre and if he had two pair there was a very good chance he would have check-raised me somewhere rather than check-called.

To bet or not to bet?

Anything else wrong with my line?
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#20 Poet

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 09:16 PM

Why are you not raising preflop?
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#21 Pants McSkill

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 10:43 PM

Good question - because I'd seen UTG limp with AK, AQ & KK along with A2 & A4. He min bet every single flop regardless of texture and his holding. And as such I didn't want to build a pot if I hit and A or T - and then not really know where I was at. My M's 71 - no need to get involved with a marginal holding.

Granted I was in the same situation as it played out but it let me raise his flop minbet without having already built a big pot.

Button was running 57/9 and BB was 46/18. I figured by raising, I'm not folding them out - if they're calling, they're calling.
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#22 mayor_mike_haggar

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 11:27 PM

the only reason you should be raising is for value or as a bluff, though. You kind of need to decide which it is, and not just bet yourself into a corner. You're probably ahead of his range, so raising seems ok if he's a calling station and his flop min-bets mean nothing. River is interesting, because if he's playing any comination of Ax then there are now more combinations that we're behind than ahead of. I assume he'd have bet a 2 pair by now, but AJ and AK should worry us. I doubt we get called by a Q, so I'm probably ok checking this back on the river to avoid value betting myself vs a station.
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#23 Pants McSkill

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 12:12 AM

the only reason you should be raising is for value or as a bluff, though. You kind of need to decide which it is, and not just bet yourself into a corner. You're probably ahead of his range, so raising seems ok if he's a calling station and his flop min-bets mean nothing.



Yep, totally agree.

However, with two very loose players to act behind me, one of which will have position on us, if we raise, how much are we raising?

4xBB? The BB loose player is coming along with any two (trust me - he's shown down some utter garbage so far) and then so will UTG. So then the pot's t1,500 or even t1,900 if the very loose button come along as well. That's almost 20% of our stack. Even if we hit the Ace and Bet for value on a drawy board, that's going to have to be in the t1200-t1600 range - what if UTG calls our flop bet? We're in a massive pot with A+medium kicker and we just don't know if we're ahead or crushed.

I'd prefer to avoid all that trouble and all those difficult decisions by not raising pre here and keeping the pot small. Note that it's only the presence of the loose players on the button and BB that are making me think this way.


Of course the simplest answer to all the above is stop playing $6 knock-out tourneys full of gambler calling stations. :lol:
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#24 mayor_mike_haggar

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 01:03 AM

On a completely different note, I think that phil galfond's articles for bluff magazine in '07/'08 should be required reading for ANYONE who would actually like to make money playing poker. The man's a genius. They're infinitely more valuable than half the rubbish books with starting hand selections that're out there.

http://www.bluffmaga...alfond-215.html
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#25 Poet

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 07:39 AM

Good question - because I'd seen UTG limp with AK, AQ & KK along with A2 & A4. He min bet every single flop regardless of texture and his holding. And as such I didn't want to build a pot if I hit and A or T - and then not really know where I was at. My M's 71 - no need to get involved with a marginal holding.

Granted I was in the same situation as it played out but it let me raise his flop minbet without having already built a big pot.

Button was running 57/9 and BB was 46/18. I figured by raising, I'm not folding them out - if they're calling, they're calling.

You're raising for value there and to isolate. Fish can come along but that's the game. You don't have to pot the flop or anything. I think not raising here preflop and letting in fish cheap is a pretty fishy move in itself.

On a completely different note, I think that phil galfond's articles for bluff magazine in '07/'08 should be required reading for ANYONE who would actually like to make money playing poker.

I'll have a read!
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#26 Pants McSkill

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 11:22 AM

You're raising for value there and to isolate. Fish can come along but that's the game. You don't have to pot the flop or anything. I think not raising here preflop and letting in fish cheap is a pretty fishy move in itself.



I can totally see where you're coming from and I'm not disagreeing with you - this is why I posted the hand!

In the same situation as above, with the BB and UTG calling a let's say 3.5xBB raise, what's our line on the above flop of 8Posted Image, APosted Image, QPosted Image?

By reckoning there's t1,100 in the pot and we've got an effective stack of t3,200ish.
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#27 Poet

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 07:42 AM

Put 600 in on the flop and see what happens. If someone raises or pushes you have a question to ask yourself.
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#28 Chaz

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 07:46 PM

Had this hand happen earlier. Wondering if any of the more experienced players here think I did anything significantly wrong? Or was it just a straightforward cooler?

*********** # 14 **************
PokerStars Game #42566699611: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2010/04/12 19:56:20 WET [2010/04/12 14:56:20 ET]
Table 'Volans VI' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: Istvanka1212 ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: ASMoney ($73.15 in chips)
Seat 4: dani-L$$$131 ($33.80 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($51.80 in chips)
Seat 7: Laszlo Kovac ($50 in chips)
Seat 8: seskaton ($52.30 in chips)
Seat 9: autic ($50.75 in chips)
Laszlo Kovac: posts small blind $0.25
seskaton: posts big blind $0.50
joepfederer: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [As 5s]
autic: raises $1 to $1.50
Istvanka1212: folds
ASMoney has timed out
ASMoney: folds
dani-L$$$131: folds
Hero : calls $1.50
Laszlo Kovac: folds
seskaton: folds
*** FLOP *** [6s 5c 9s]
autic: bets $2.50
Hero : calls $2.50
*** TURN *** [6s 5c 9s] [Ad]
autic: bets $7
Hero 7: calls $7
*** RIVER *** [6s 5c 9s Ad] [Qh]
autic: bets $15
Hero : calls $15
*** SHOW DOWN ***
autic: shows [9d 9c] (three of a kind, Nines)
Hero : mucks hand
autic collected $50.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $52.75 | Rake $2.55
Board [6s 5c 9s Ad Qh]
Seat 2: Istvanka1212 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ASMoney folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: dani-L$$$131 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Hero (button) mucked [As 5s]
Seat 7: Laszlo Kovac (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: seskaton (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: autic showed [9d 9c] and won ($50.20) with three of a kind, Nines

Probably it's going to be said that I should have raised the turn, but I had a little inkling that he had hit the set (having played this guy a few times before) so knew I was almost certainly having to call his all in if I raised any of his bets, so I figured my draws were still good.

The one thing that really suprised me was how agressively he played the flopped nuts, I didn't expect him to be holding 9s at all. There's no way in heaven he could have put me on a flush draw on that flop, so I guess he must have thought I was holding and overpair to think i'd call a bet of almost pot value.

Maybe I should have gotten out on the river, but I was only really beaten by a set. And the fact he raised in first position after that flop suggested an overpair to me.
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#29 mayor_mike_haggar

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 10:14 PM

If I'd been in that hand I was probably going broke on the turn, and I'd definitely have thought about raising the flop. Pair+nfd is a big hand and you're never drawing dead. You have an absolute monster of a hand, and you really can't just go assigning people sets left right and centre. On the flop he can have overpairs, and overcards with flushes too, as well as just cbetting air like ak. With 2 pair and the nfd I think you have to raise the turn, it's just such a huge hand.

Although it's worth noting that he didn't flop the nuts, the nuts on this board is 78. I really think that, in the long run, playing big hands like this so passively will cost you money, since you won't get maximum value from them.

And you should never be folding the river in that spot, that's just being results oriented. Just a cold deck.
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#30 Commander Jameson

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 11:03 PM

I wonder if A5s is worth the pre-flop call of an early raiser. I don't know what the stats on the raiser were and whether that impacted your decision to call pre-flop.

I agree with mike that a raise on the turn would help define the villain's hand.
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