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Jansh

A song of ice and fire

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[quote name='GlasgowChivas' timestamp='1311850411' post='8036665']
I've been thinking about how the characters were left at the end of ADWD and I can't see how GRRM will tie this up in two more books.

We have to resolve:

Spoilers right up to end of ADWD, including character fates - do not read unless your up to date.

[spoiler]Dany's fate, which now seems tied to another Khalasaar. The fate of Mereen and Dany's new husband. The Y'unkai and the other people who are massing to destroy Meereen. Barristan and Dany's allies holding the city from invaders and the Harpy within. Tyrion and the Second Sons possible defection to Dany's cause - though that could go quickly now he and Penny are signed up and Pentos has been promised to the Tattered Prince. And we have Victarian heading towards them all with his fleet and his horn that - I'm guessing - is going to give him control of Viserios and Rhaegal. And that's just the eastern players!

We've got the fate of Jon Snow and what that means for The Night's Watch (including the letter of legitimancy that Robb dispatched before the Red Wedding), the Wildlings, Queen Selys and Melissandre. We don't know what's happened to Mance, Stannis or The Bolton's other than what we were told in the Pink Letter, which we can't trust. Rickon is going to be found by Davos thanks to the awesome Lord Manderley but Bran is still stuck up North and on his way to being an awesome Greenseer/Treerootman. Sansa and Littlefinger are probably going to take over The Vale thanks to his scheming but I have a feeling that won't end well. Arya! I forgot her. She's on her way to being a super-assasin, though whether she can ever be a true Faceless Man.....I don't think so. We've got the Mummer's Dragon, Aegon landed in the South and intent on rallying support to his banners through battle. And BAck in King's Landing we've just learned that Varys is still around and id still pulling strings to keep the bloodshed going until the Targaerayns can claim the Throne. I've not even mentioned Jamie or Brianne or ZombieCaetlynn or Ser Jorah or FrankenClegane or Cersei.

Whew! I think we're looking at 8 books now. [/spoiler]
[/quote]

Good post and I think I agree about how we’re looking at 8 books now. There’s one other character I really hope gets a good ending:

[spoiler]
I reckon Ser Jorah will end up back on the Wall, his previous slavery crimes forgiven and he’s able to get some vengeance for his Dad and have one last massive ruck. Maybe he could end up as the 999th head of the Watch.
[/spoiler]
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[quote name='Silent Runner' timestamp='1312359691' post='8049243']
Good post and I think I agree about how we’re looking at 8 books now. There’s one other character I really hope gets a good ending:

[spoiler]
I reckon Ser Jorah will end up back on the Wall, his previous slavery crimes forgiven and he’s able to get some vengeance for his Dad and have one last massive ruck. Maybe he could end up as the 999th head of the Watch.
[/spoiler]
[/quote]

Ser Jorah [spoiler]I could see as the 1,000th Commander. Bowen Marsh will be the 999th now that Jon is dead/undead but I have a feeling his tenure will be brief. The only thing is, it would be such a right ending for Mormont - his crimes forgiven, his father's dying wish fufilled - that I don't see GRRM giving it to him. [/spoiler]
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I think Jorah [spoiler]would see being a slave no different from being on the wall[/spoiler]
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Finished Dance a couple of nights ago.

[spoiler] I was pretty disappointed to be honest. What GRRM needs is a decent editor. It could have been half the length it was.

We know you like fucking pies, stop describing feasts!

The repetition was massively tiresome. It fitted with Reek, but the rest was just unnecessary.

Everything on the Danny side of the world was pish. One of my friends summed it up well when he said it was like reading a travel guide to somewhere he didn't really want to visit.

Quentyn was just a waste of time/words. No impact at all when he was killed because he was only introduced at the end of the last book, and it's not like he actually did anything cool.

I think the major problem was splitting it by location rather than chronologically. I just want him to get in with the story!

I did like the Theon chapters, and the bit with the Stone Men was ace, very atmospheric. Really enjoyed the Davos chapters too, but found it a bit annoying that they just stopped half way through. Same with Bran's chapters.

All in all, MEH. Could have been 400 pages. He better get the fuck on with writing the next one.[/spoiler]
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[quote name='GlasgowChivas' timestamp='1311850411' post='8036665']
I've been thinking about how the characters were left at the end of ADWD and I can't see how GRRM will tie this up in two more books.

We have to resolve:

Spoilers right up to end of ADWD, including character fates - do not read unless your up to date.

[spoiler]Dany's fate, which now seems tied to another Khalasaar. The fate of Mereen and Dany's new husband. The Y'unkai and the other people who are massing to destroy Meereen. Barristan and Dany's allies holding the city from invaders and the Harpy within. Tyrion and the Second Sons possible defection to Dany's cause - though that could go quickly now he and Penny are signed up and Pentos has been promised to the Tattered Prince. And we have Victarian heading towards them all with his fleet and his horn that - I'm guessing - is going to give him control of Viserios and Rhaegal. And that's just the eastern players!

We've got the fate of Jon Snow and what that means for The Night's Watch (including the letter of legitimancy that Robb dispatched before the Red Wedding), the Wildlings, Queen Selys and Melissandre. We don't know what's happened to Mance, Stannis or The Bolton's other than what we were told in the Pink Letter, which we can't trust. Rickon is going to be found by Davos thanks to the awesome Lord Manderley but Bran is still stuck up North and on his way to being an awesome Greenseer/Treerootman. Sansa and Littlefinger are probably going to take over The Vale thanks to his scheming but I have a feeling that won't end well. Arya! I forgot her. She's on her way to being a super-assasin, though whether she can ever be a true Faceless Man.....I don't think so. We've got the Mummer's Dragon, Aegon landed in the South and intent on rallying support to his banners through battle. And BAck in King's Landing we've just learned that Varys is still around and id still pulling strings to keep the bloodshed going until the Targaerayns can claim the Throne. I've not even mentioned Jamie or Brianne or ZombieCaetlynn or Ser Jorah or FrankenClegane or Cersei.

Whew! I think we're looking at 8 books now. [/spoiler]
[/quote]
A good sum-up, and yet somehow there's at least one more thread you've not mentioned...
[spoiler]All the potential shenanigans and revelations in Old Town with Sam - the maesters have to be up to no good. Oh, and when will they deliver some of that napalm stuff (can't remember the name of it) up to The Wall?!

Having just finished the book myself, I agree - Jon won't be gone (thank goodness) as I expect Mel to do something (she surely must've "foreseen" things) or even some weir-d Bran magick (though I'm convinced something bad's going to happen with Bran - his all too casual invasion of Hodor can't be good for one's soul). I'm glad you mentioned Rickon as I've been racking my brain wondering where he had gone, and whether he'd died somehow; will be interesting to find out what (if anything of not - perhaps he got to HardHolme and is leading the wildlings somehow?).

Things I like(d):
Arya - love that story thread (though it was still quite slow - and I can't believe Needle will STILL be under a rock in the steps). And where the hell has Nymeria gotten to - she's clearly still got a strong link with Arya, but could be anywhere (I thought they were going to get together near Harrenhal).
Jon - he's really become a good commander on the wall (brokering deals with banks, wildlings and "usurpers" has made him quite a focus). His story can't be over since there's just too many things to tie up in it that a death would leave mercilessly hanging.
Tyrion - poor chap, but you can tell GRRM enjoys writing these chapters; I think he reminds me of Glockta from the Joe Abercrombie books in that he's disfigured, evil-ish (due to circumstance) and sarky!
Davos stuff - solid chap, woefully underused
Jaime - similar, but glad Brienne's back and will be interesting to see where that trail ends (has she found Peter & Sansa)?
Varys - a welcome return (if him, Tyrion & Littlefinger ever worked together, no-one would stop them!)
Bran started slowly, but lead somewhere interesting - the children of the forest are real and there's so magic-a-happening. I wonder if the undead ranger chap was Benjen Stark (seems the obvious choice - perhaps that's an echo of Jon's future?)

Less enjoyable:
Dany - still bores me. And other than Selmy (and Daario) those chapters just felt like padding really.
Reek / Bolton - was fine, but far too long
Asha and other Dorne bits didn't really go anywhere. The Quentyn story seemed purely a device to introduce sellswords and to get the dragons turned loose.
Cersei - nice to see her get her comeuppance, but she's definitely still up to something.

So, yeah, enjoyed it, felt it was dragging in some places, but also wish it'd gone on even longer :/
[/spoiler]
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I'm pretty much with Blunted on this. It was ok, ridiculously padded out, full of filler and held no real "What the fuck!?" moments for me. Not to say there weren't some surprises but nothing like previous books. [spoiler]Jon won't die, he's too integral to everything. Sixskins death served no purpose other than to inform us that you can live on after death if you can shift bodies. Could be a red herring.[/spoiler]

GRRM seems to have become to believe his own hype. Either that or, as has been mentioned, his editor is a sycophantic dipshit that couldn't summon up the gumption to tell the fat bearded hobo looking fuck to reign it in. There's no need for the book to be the length it is, most of the shit could have been resolved sooner, quicker and in more interesting manners. [spoiler]Also, when writing older men that server under the king/queen/for the empire why do all his character blur into one? Kevan Lannister and Barristan Selmy could almost be the same bloody character.[/spoiler]

Overall I think my views on the book can be summed up thusly: <_<
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[quote name='Rudi von Starnberg' timestamp='1311375654' post='8025827']
prophecy talk:
[spoiler]Frey Bentos. :lol:

Aegon is probably the Mummer's Dragon, but that doesn't mean he's fake - he's Varys' preferred candidate for the throne, and Varys was raised among mummers.

Also Quentyn could be the sun that rose in the west and set in the east, and Dany finds that the grass in the Dothraki sea is dying (so the sea is drying up)... all we need is for mountains to blow like dust in the wind, and she'll bear a living child again. Perhaps.

The prophecy stuff is pretty mental, and very hard to keep track of without this extra-curricular homework.[/spoiler]
[/quote]

I just finished the book (I was still re-reading the previous ones when it came out) and have been reading through this thread. I'm only upto this post so it might have allready been suggested, but my prediction for the next book, and the last part of that prophecy...

[spoiler]The Mountain that Rides (Ser Robert Strong) will crumble to dust while championing Cersei. Due to all the crazy necro shit that Qyburn has done.[/spoiler]
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Okay, caught up on the thread now, too. Few things:

[spoiler]
1. Wicked Kitten - couple things you mentioned, one being the greenseer guy. Who is it that you think he is? And why? I forget what name you mentioned but I don't know who that guy is. Also, the first Barristan quote, Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal... what happened there? The second quote is obviously Barristan backing up your C+J are Targaryens theory. Which is pretty exciting.

2. Why do people think Jaime and Brienne are off on heroic deeds?! She's clearly luring them to the Stone Woman, Catelyn, whatever she's called now. And doom.

3. I got the pies thing :3 There was a specific mention that Roose Bolton was only eating what Lord Manderly ate himself, to be sure it wasn't poisoned. So for a minute I thought that maybe he was taking the hit and poisoning the lot of them, and himself along with it, but when that clearly wasn't the case, there had to be another reason, and that was the only one he would enjoy so very much. The Rat King thing later just confirmed it. (Lord Manderly had the 'missing' Freys baked in a pie, eaten at 'Arya's wedding)

4. The fingerbones mention from Melisandre did stand out too. Does she have them? I'm pretty sure we've only seen Davos from his point of view, and it definitely is him inside that skin, surely. Not sure if that's just setting something up, or what. He got given them way before Mel turned up, right?

5. All these prophecy things are pretty hard to follow / remember. And I think that probably they will never be spelt out for everyone to see? Just those that have the tenacity to re-read and work it out for themselves will be able to point it out. Which is kinda nice. But I definitely think these things ARE prophecy, like MMDs one: Dany keeps repeating it verbatim, so the words themselves are important, not just what they stand for. "When these things happen" not just "never". Also, people have mentioned how Quentyn's character was a little lacklustre and they shouldn't have bothered with him. I think this proves that the prophecies are important - he was kept in the book because he had to fulfill that part of the prophecy - sun rising in the west and setting in the east. Also, someone had to free the last dragons. Are there any good places online with the prophecies explained (as far as we can guess) line for line?

6. Speaking of dragons... I wish they could have just used some positive reinforcement to train them :< It would have been so easy! I was almost hoping that Penny would become the dragon trainer, and pull out the clicker she used to train Pretty Pig to be such an awesome horse, etc. Tad unlikely, however ;)

7. Lastly, I hope he reigns in some of the POVs so the story moves forward at a steadier pace. We can find out what happens to each of the characters people care about, but it doesn't have to all be from their pov, surely. He keeps adding more each turn, and even the ones that die off don't really die off, now. It's getting so bloated it can only move at a snails pace.

8. Oh and blatently Sam's broken horn is the one that brings down the wall, whatever that's called. But whyever would he use it?

9. Oh, oh and, if we saw Dunc (from Dunc and Egg) kissing Old Nan, blatently he's Hodor's father, because Hodor has to be special somehow. But who is Dunc? I have not read those stories.
[/spoiler]

[edit]oh AND.. [spoiler] I think THE Harpy is the Green something woman. The one who brokered Dany's marriage, and was upset by her dealings with Daario. At some point one of them told Dany that the women were the ones to really watch for, the ones who really wouldn't forgive her. And GRRM has a habit of making women the people who are the worst to other women (the men just rape and kill them).[/spoiler]
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Spoilers in Spoilers!

[quote name='minkee' timestamp='1314703909' post='8106604']
Okay, caught up on the thread now, too. Few things:

[spoiler]
1. Wicked Kitten - couple things you mentioned, one being the greenseer guy. Who is it that you think he is? And why? I forget what name you mentioned but I don't know who that guy is. Also, the first Barristan quote, Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal... what happened there? The second quote is obviously Barristan backing up your C+J are Targaryens theory. Which is pretty exciting.

2. Why do people think Jaime and Brienne are off on heroic deeds?! She's clearly luring them to the Stone Woman, Catelyn, whatever she's called now. And doom.

3. I got the pies thing :3 There was a specific mention that Roose Bolton was only eating what Lord Manderly ate himself, to be sure it wasn't poisoned. So for a minute I thought that maybe he was taking the hit and poisoning the lot of them, and himself along with it, but when that clearly wasn't the case, there had to be another reason, and that was the only one he would enjoy so very much. The Rat King thing later just confirmed it. (Lord Manderly had the 'missing' Freys baked in a pie, eaten at 'Arya's wedding)

4. The fingerbones mention from Melisandre did stand out too. Does she have them? I'm pretty sure we've only seen Davos from his point of view, and it definitely is him inside that skin, surely. Not sure if that's just setting something up, or what. He got given them way before Mel turned up, right?

5. All these prophecy things are pretty hard to follow / remember. And I think that probably they will never be spelt out for everyone to see? Just those that have the tenacity to re-read and work it out for themselves will be able to point it out. Which is kinda nice. But I definitely think these things ARE prophecy, like MMDs one: Dany keeps repeating it verbatim, so the words themselves are important, not just what they stand for. "When these things happen" not just "never". Also, people have mentioned how Quentyn's character was a little lacklustre and they shouldn't have bothered with him. I think this proves that the prophecies are important - he was kept in the book because he had to fulfill that part of the prophecy - sun rising in the west and setting in the east. Also, someone had to free the last dragons. Are there any good places online with the prophecies explained (as far as we can guess) line for line?

6. Speaking of dragons... I wish they could have just used some positive reinforcement to train them :< It would have been so easy! I was almost hoping that Penny would become the dragon trainer, and pull out the clicker she used to train Pretty Pig to be such an awesome horse, etc. Tad unlikely, however ;)

7. Lastly, I hope he reigns in some of the POVs so the story moves forward at a steadier pace. We can find out what happens to each of the characters people care about, but it doesn't have to all be from their pov, surely. He keeps adding more each turn, and even the ones that die off don't really die off, now. It's getting so bloated it can only move at a snails pace.

8. Oh and blatently Sam's broken horn is the one that brings down the wall, whatever that's called. But whyever would he use it?

9. Oh, oh and, if we saw Dunc (from Dunc and Egg) kissing Old Nan, blatently he's Hodor's father, because Hodor has to be special somehow. But who is Dunc? I have not read those stories.
[spoiler] It may ruin the Hedge Knight books for you, which would be a shame as they are really good....

[spoiler]
He's a hedge knight but becomes Ser Duncan the Tall, lord commander of Aegon Vs Kingsguard
[/spoiler]

Further spoiler on it!
[spoiler]
Egg is Aegon V
[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[edit]oh AND.. [spoiler] I think THE Harpy is the Green something woman. The one who brokered Dany's marriage, and was upset by her dealings with Daario. At some point one of them told Dany that the women were the ones to really watch for, the ones who really wouldn't forgive her. And GRRM has a habit of making women the people who are the worst to other women (the men just rape and kill them).[/spoiler]
[/quote]
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[quote name='minkee' timestamp='1314701554' post='8106490']
I just finished the book (I was still re-reading the previous ones when it came out) and have been reading through this thread. I'm only upto this post so it might have allready been suggested, but my prediction for the next book, and the last part of that prophecy...

[spoiler]The Mountain that Rides (Ser Robert Strong) will crumble to dust while championing Cersei. Due to all the crazy necro shit that Qyburn has done.[/spoiler]
[/quote]

I genuinely thought that at least Fox would be 'fuck yeah! that sounds right!' I was quite pleased with it.

Is anyone else having withdrawals? I just want the next book and I want it now.
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[quote name='minkee' timestamp='1314801860' post='8109444']
I genuinely thought that at least Fox would be 'fuck yeah! that sounds right!' I was quite pleased with it.

Is anyone else having withdrawals? I just want the next book and I want it now.
[/quote]

Yep. I've been away on holiday for a week and read some other books and they just didn't hook me at all the way ASOIAF did. I've managed to aquire the Dunk & Egg novellas though so will work through them to get my Westeros fix.
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[quote name='minkee' timestamp='1314801860' post='8109444']
I genuinely thought that at least Fox would be 'fuck yeah! that sounds right!' I was quite pleased with it.

Is anyone else having withdrawals? I just want the next book and I want it now.
[/quote]

The feeling will fade in time as the years go by and Gurm taunts you by doing seemingly anything other than finishing the bloody book he is supposed to be writing.

I enjoyed Dance too FWIW but he is veering dangerously towards Jordan style meandering. His editor needs to get a bit more involved on the next volume - and maybe lock him away until he actually sits down and writes the damnded thing
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[quote name='moosegrinder' timestamp='1314802940' post='8109513']
At the risk of a one way ticket to neg city I don't actually care much any more. I am in the minority though.
[/quote]
Same. I seriously think he has lost his way. I'll read the next one, that's for sure, but I'm not gonna be fiending for it like I was with Dance.
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[quote name='moosegrinder' timestamp='1314802940' post='8109513']
At the risk of a one way ticket to neg city I don't actually care much any more. I am in the minority though.
[/quote]
[quote name='Blunted' timestamp='1314825306' post='8110302']
Same. I seriously think he has lost his way. I'll read the next one, that's for sure, but I'm not gonna be fiending for it like I was with Dance.
[/quote]
I actually liked the whole series a lot more this time round. The first time I read it through in a frenzy, just ploughing forward, waiting for something good to happen (it didn't). This time I took my time and enjoyed the characters I hurried over previously a lot more. Figuring out all the little nuances and background plots is really quite satisfying. Keeping track of who is pulling which strings is a full time job in itself. Also having done nothing but watch and read this since the series started (how many months is that?) it's really weird trying to read anything else right now.

[quote name='dreamylittledream' timestamp='1314817158' post='8109970']
The feeling will fade in time as the years go by and Gurm taunts you by doing seemingly anything other than finishing the bloody book he is supposed to be writing.
[/quote]
I waited out the last six years, and just when I gave up all hope he announced the new one. Coupled with TV execs looking over his shoulder I have a little faith in him this time round.
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For me the only bits that dragged were the Dany bits, the characters just aren't that interesting, I didn't care about Hizar whatsisface, I didn't particularly care about the plague and who it was killing, I didn't care about the sons of the harpy. Hell, the only interesting characters in the whole storyline there are Dany, Barriston, and the Dragons, and he managed to remove the dragons for most of it!

Take those out and I thought it ran at a reasonable pace, and anything not there was almost as good as the previous books I thought.
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I found Tyrion's chapters got a bit boring for a while though, didn't care for any of that nonsense with Penny, the dog and the pig.
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[quote name='minkee' timestamp='1314703909' post='8106604']
Okay, caught up on the thread now, too. Few things:

[spoiler]
1. Wicked Kitten - couple things you mentioned, one being the greenseer guy. Who is it that you think he is? And why? I forget what name you mentioned but I don't know who that guy is. Also, the first Barristan quote, Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal... what happened there? The second quote is obviously Barristan backing up your C+J are Targaryens theory. Which is pretty exciting.[/spoiler][/quote]

[spoiler]The Greenseer is Brynden Rivers. Lord Bloodraven from the Dunk and Egg stories who was also a Targaryen. As for what happened at Harrenhal, Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned, and at some point she ended up pregnant. Barristan also said something about young girls choosing fire over mud despite how fire will only end up destroying them and how Ashara had been dishonoured by a Stark, which describes Brandon more than it will ever describe Ned, plus there are other things that hint that it was Brandon who got her pregnant. Either way the child from that was a girl who was born stillborn so it couldn't have possibly been Jon no matter who sired her.


As far as Hodor, I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't somehow related to Dunk as Dunk was almost seven feet tall, Mind I wouldn't be surprised if Brienne isn't somehow related to Dunk as well.
[/spoiler]
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[quote name='Delargey' timestamp='1315041313' post='8115590']
And Ayra.
[/quote]
It is hard (for me) to see where her story is going though... all seems pretty random!
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[quote name='moosegrinder' timestamp='1314802940' post='8109513']
At the risk of a one way ticket to neg city I don't actually care much any more. I am in the minority though.
[/quote]
Same. Feast and Dance have really taken things off the boil for me and I've lost a lot of interest.
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[quote name='The Fox' timestamp='1315162359' post='8117827']
Same. Feast and Dance have really taken things off the boil for me and I've lost a lot of interest.
[/quote]

I have to say I feel the same as well, those 2 books needed a ruthless editor and turned into a single book and even then it wouldn't have been up to the first books. I'll keep an eye on the next book but I won't be pre-ordering or rushing to buy it.
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