Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
dan_tm

Puzzle Fez - Out now on XBLA

1,094 posts in this topic

?

How bizarre, I have no idea how that got on there. I don't think it was there when I posted it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Newsflash - there are other games like Cave Story in art style. It's not the be-all and end-all of 8 bit-esque graphics by a long chalk.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm quite excited by the thought of playing this. Derivative or not.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm quite excited by the thought of playing this. Derivative or not.

Definitely :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been following this myself for a bit - not my cup of tea as its an adventure puzzle game rather then a pure platformer.....but some insight into what others think of the core mechanics....

I've decided to write out some of my thoughts on the whole rotation idea:

The 2D/3D rotation is a trainwreck idea. The whole thing =)

I spent 3 months after Fish left to work on his own thing playing with it, and it's unworkable.

It's *FAR* too difficult to visualize the result of anything more than a very very simple rotation. The idea was to require movement in xy to affect objects in zy so you'd have to work in both perspectives to solve problems. It's far too difficult to visualize this. Actually, it's not *too* difficult, it's just requires too much conditioning - It takes a very long time for a player to understand the dimensional relationships.

My idea had a central pivot point, rather than pivoting on the player to allow things to move independently from the player, and add repercussions to rotation. Also various surfaces to alter the mechanics of rotation. ie: push a block, or stand on something blue and that object won't be affected by the rotation, or stand on something red and the object becomes stuck to the tile and will move in 2 dimensions, rather than the one projected dimension.

Without the ability for a dimension shift in xy to affect (negatively) zy you get an indirect problem: the world becomes you reaching a point you can't pass, and you just try rotating until a new path opens up - this isn't very interesting.

The concept could possibly be developed with the addition of more platforming elements, possibly enemies, or bullets or something else to let the ideas sink into the players' minds for longer, but that'd be a totally different game with a tacked on gimmicky rotation.

There might very well be a reason why all the games with altering spacial perception have a 'tacked on' feel; it's too complex to visualize to be the centre-piece of a game. Braid works so fantastically because the puzzles are interesting, unique *AND* solvable by human beings. You can't have all three with the rotation unless you repeat a lot - which subtracts from point 1: being interesting. One reason Braid is successful might be because the player can view both dimensions at once: position and time, whereas with the rotation/projection it's possible only to view the position in a single projection. It's quite possible that a split-screen view of the world would solve this, but that's very uninteresting visually.

Fez looks amazing, but it's suffers from all the problems I mentioned above. It's not the fault of Fish or anyone else, but possibly myself for coming up with a bad idea. I don't think awesome visuals and great sound are enough to carry a bad idea. It might be enough though, what do I know?, it does look and sound awesome, it's just too bad the visuals and sound are wasted on unworkable gameplay mechanic =(

The art and sound are fantastic. It's nice to see this concept applied fully, as the basis of a platformer, rather than simply tacked-on as a gimmick. There is definitely a lot of style and charm here, from the "made with trixels" to the "enjoy the load" to the rest of the whole damn game, both content and presentation.

Now, the bad. The main problem with this game is that, despite how amazingly fun the concept seems, in practice it reduces to "run left/right until you're stuck, then rotate world 1-3 times until a path becomes clear". It's hard to say if this is an improvement on Super Paper Mario's "run left/right until you're stuck, then rotate the world (1 time)" formula.

Maybe I'm stupid, but the full 3D world is too complex for me to figure out or plan a route, even using the nifty right-stick camera. This means that instead of solving puzzles, I'm basically just pressing a button until I see a solution.. and it's hard to see how this could be resolved.

The end result is that the whole rotating-of-the-world element doesn't add a lot to the game, which reduces the fun-ness to the platforming part.. which is only okay so far (probably due to this being a first introductory world and there not being many objects/enemies/etc).

Historically, games with terrific style but only okay/bog-standard gameplay tend to do well (*cough* Darwinia *cough*).. I really hope you win the graphics and sound categories, but the game itself is only.. is "luke-fun" a word? Let's say "medium-fun".

Still, it's about 9874264x better than 99% of the games on "Xbox360 LIVE! Arcade". Yes, that's actually how you have to write it. sigh.

Basically, you should just beef up the platformer elements: add some abilities or other game mechanics (see Lyle in Cube Sector, The Underside, Cave Story, Darkside Adventures, etc), and/or enemies and objects to interact with. Given the current design it seems like almost anything you make will be charming and brilliant.

If you don't want to get rid of those delightful trixels, you need to find a solution which works a bit better.. maybe you could construct the world in 3D but let the game handle the rotation automatically.. sort of like in NiGHTS on Saturn: the player comes to the edge of a cliff, and the game rotates the game world automatically. You could still do weird 2D/3D stuff where the player is running around the 4 faces of a building, except this way the player would really just treat it as a normal 2D game with the rotation being handled automatically. It wouldn't necessarily only have to be an "effect" either, there could still be some meaningful mechanics since altering parts of the level in one view (destroying/adding blocks, etc) would keep them altered when you approached it from a different angle -- the difference is that the player would be changing the angle by moving left/right in a designer-guided way and letting the game rotate the world, rather than manually rotating it. Manual rotation just seems to lead to "when in doubt, just rotate to see if that helps, THEN think about a solution"-itis as present in SPM.

To me the auto-rotate seems like it would be a lot more fun, as currently the rotating thing just interrupts the fun parts of running and jumping.. aaaand since the rotating is really not puzzle-y or involving (and is quite reminiscent of the good old "try every possible combination to solve the problem, as there's no way in hell you'll solve it by thinking about it" found in adventure games, see http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,522 ) automating it won't really take anything away from the player.

So i think comrade has a point - but its not about the graphics.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see why he's having such a problem. Crush worked fantastically. The only main differences I can see between this and crush are that crush had smaller levels, and used the 3d perspective a lot more.

I think it's that latter bit that might solve the problem. In 3d you can asses all the dimensions at the same time while thinking of a solution. Then flatten the perspective to carry out the solution, knowing exactly how the world will look when it rotates, because you worked it out in 3d first.

I also don't see what's so wrong with "rotating till you get the answer" as surveying and exploration is a natural part of solving environment puzzles in any game, but then, I've not played it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think some people (myself included) want this to be a proper arcade platformer. The puzzle elements seems to break the feeling of continuity.

As said, with a 2D game you generally know that the fix to a puzzle is there somewhere. You don't usually have to travel far to find it - or you just have to do something fun.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ignoring all the parade raining, Fez coming to XBLA is excellent (if inevitable) news.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't see why he's having such a problem. Crush worked fantastically. The only main differences I can see between this and crush are that crush had smaller levels, and used the 3d perspective a lot more.

The main issue with Crush (aside from the hideous art) was much the same as Super Paper Mario, in that the solution is simply to 'crush and see'. Whether it's one possible solution (SPM) or five (Crush), it's not the strongest foundation for a puzzle game, sadly.

I do agree that it'd work better within a prinipcally 3D game, though.

Maybe full 360 degree flattening would be the next step, rather than set angles. Probably a nightmare to design.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bet is is.

It looks great - no one can't say otherwise - but putting it into a game must be complete brainache.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love it.

I had assumed it died a slow death.

Is it still coming to XBLA/PSN??

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks lovely, if potentially mind-mangling.

Isn't that one of the reasons for the delay, I'm sure the dev or someone said that making the puzzles comprehensible and enjoyable was a problem.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fez has been in development for almost 15 years.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fez has been in development for almost 15 years.

Indeed, every time I see it it's had a graphical update. I just wish the fucking thing would come out already.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, every time I see it it's had a graphical update. I just wish the fucking thing would come out already.

Too true. I have a feeling if it doesn't come out by next year's summer of arcade, it'll never come out at all. That said, if it is near completion, I don't want them to hold it back for the summer, I really want to play this. NOW!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't that one of the reasons for the delay, I'm sure the dev or someone said that making the puzzles comprehensible and enjoyable was a problem.

That video a few posts above must be an awful example as there is nothing in there that comes close to being a "puzzle".

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

even some of the background tiles look like direct rips from cave story...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent, all the character animation has been completely overhauled. Looks super lovely now, I think since they got this lady on board: http://nanokostudio.deviantart.com/

From that video I would say they really need to speed up the climbing. Otherwise, it looks like there's more of an "objective" going on than in older previews - I was worried about it feeling a bit aimless but I guess that's what all this extra development time has gone towards.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wore my Fez t-shirt only yesterday. I long for the day people know what the fuck it is.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@SuperMeatBoy (Team Meat)

Just got a near final build of Fez, Its easily is one of the prettiest games ive played since limbo.. the attention to detail is stunning

:)

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will it be more of a game than Limbo?

Still, let's hope it means it's out just after Chrimbo at the latest.

-2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a feeling it'll be really really boring. I'd like to be wrong of course.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends what you mean by boring. It looks like it'll be slow, but it's a puzzle game, it's not meant to be fast and action-packed.

If you're looking for some kind of Mario-like platformer with a cool rotation mechanic you're going to be bored. It's not trying to be that game.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember when this was first announced, it's still being published by Gremlin Graphics for the ZX Spectrum right?

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.