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Halo 3 map discussion


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#91 Kryptonian

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 01:46 PM

never seen a team but it's very sweet catching someone in there alright.

Can someone tell me if there's another way for slayer matches on maps like Isolation and Narrows than rushing both the Rocket Launcher and/or Ghost. Or does anyone have any good methods for securing these or does anyone have any other tactics. Like, let the other team run for them but in the meantime we'll....

basically what I'm asking is where these power weapons aren't equally divided is securing them always your main priority?

We never go for the ghost on Isolation. If the other team does it will alway get stuck or BR'ed as it's trying to get someone.
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#92 superstarbeejay

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 02:04 PM

I just had my best ever game on the pit. I concentrated on the needler and shotgun combo. It works well and there is plenty of needler ammo around the place. I got a kill frenzy with that combo and got about 22-5 overall. This was in team slayer
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#93 Caprylate

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 02:15 PM

Weekly Update

New Map Info:

The map tadpoles in the DLC pond continue to swim along, with some even growing into full-sized and feature-rich bullfrogs in the last couple of weeks. Only a little bit of growing left to do before the frogs find their way to the stream. One of those maps that isn’t ribbit-ing around just yet though, is O.K. Corral, an asymmetrical medium-sized map and O.K. Corral had its lighting tweaked considerably. The changes shifted the sun’s position shifted, giving the entire map a warm death-at-sunset feel. The sun’s rays stream through trees and into the blown out structure that often ends up at the very epicenter of combat (assuming you’ve procured some kind of close-quarters weapon). If you haven’t got anything short range, however, there’s a variety of multi-level open air catwalks, with glorious sight-lines down long semi-protected alleyways where you can rain death from above.

Jodrell Bank, a map Frankie talked about in recent weeks, is fast becoming one of my favorite maps from our excellent smorgasbord of DLC maps. It's a Team Slayer main course and player counts would fit swimmingly into both Social Slayer and Team Slayer hoppers and I think it might even be possible to shoehorn a few more players into the mix without overcrowding things.

Purple Reign continues to see slick revisions. The earliest iteration of the map actually had a completely different overall shape. If I sketched the cross section of the map's floor onto a napkin it would've looked like a small hill, but when you played it, it wasn't readily apparent. In the last month, the concavity was changed so that if you were staring the same napkin with the new version of it it'd look more like a gently sloping bowl. The difference in the way the map played then versus now is pretty remarkable. Subtle changes to the floor's geometry resulted in wider lines of sight for players staring down one half of the map and an intricate and strategic mix of floor/column/ramp gameplay on the other side and all of the sneaky jumps those mechanics entail.

One of the sooner-than-later maps is a treat we’re calling Vandelay. Vandelay is structurally the simplest map we’ve ever made, yet the tools that we’re providing with the help of the Forge give the map tons of potential. That potential could be used for devising clever contraptions, unique playspaces and when paired with Player Traits could become a test bed for new ideas from both Bungie and the playerbase.

Tom Doyle, one of the artists working on some of the fineries in Vandelay described the knicks and knacks on the map as Legos. Up until now, Forge has been primarily thought of as an object editor. It’s been a great tool for devising tweaks and changes to maps, the net result ranging from “Oh, you put more BRs on Snowbound,” to “Wow, you made a Jail that you rescue players from.”

We hope that Vandelay will help folks use the Forge because of the variety and different types of tools players will have at their disposal. Doyle has been working tirelessly with Tyson Green on these objects and tools. Changing weapons and spawns inevitably affects balance and map flow, but the Legos that Doyle is talking about will let players create spaces for gameplay and give them the means of dictating where players will encounter their foes, in addition to what they will be holding when they get there. Again, like we were with the Forge in the first place, we’re pretty stoked to see what folks come up with when Vandelay releases into the wild.


Vandelay sounds like a fairly lazily designed map to me and if they plan on charging us for these maps (which they most likely will do) they better be at a fair price. Still no date on an expected release, but they sound like there isn't much left to do, now all Bungie have to do is add in Ranked BTB.
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#94 Mr Ben

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 02:22 PM

now all Bungie have to do is add in Ranked BTB.


No thanks, the unranked one is fine in my opinion.
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#95 Caprylate

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 03:21 PM

No thanks, the unranked one is fine in my opinion.


They don't have to get rid of the unranked one, simply add in ranked, most of the games I play in unranked BTB are against guests who don't know the rules and it makes for a far too easy victory. Choice can only be a good thing.
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#96 Guest_alisdair_*

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 03:43 PM

Choice is not always a good thing, I hate when people say that. In this instance, having too many playlists will reduce the number of players in each one. For matchmaking to work, you need a high population in the playlist.

I do wish there was a ranked 6v6 playlist though. Ranked to keep the games even and stop people split-screening and quitting halfway through. 6v6 because that's the optimal number of players for Valhalla - 8 is too many for communication to work, 4 is too few when you've got a couple of vehicles on the go.
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#97 Caprylate

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 06:00 PM

Choice is not always a good thing, I hate when people say that. In this instance, having too many playlists will reduce the number of players in each one. For matchmaking to work, you need a high population in the playlist.

I do wish there was a ranked 6v6 playlist though. Ranked to keep the games even and stop people split-screening and quitting halfway through. 6v6 because that's the optimal number of players for Valhalla - 8 is too many for communication to work, 4 is too few when you've got a couple of vehicles on the go.


There is more then enough people playing Halo 3 for your first concern to be a non-issue (and for it to remain the case for a long time, Bungie will update playlists to suit the situation, so if it actually became a valid reason, then Bungie would change the playlists), its even less of an issue if they get rid of Team Tactical, Social Doubles and Multi-Team, which are clearly the unused playlists as it would allow Ranked BTB to exist without having an excessive amount of playlists, although adding one more isn't really going to do any harm to the system, at least not for the time being.

I'd rather Ranked BTB had the option of filtering a party size, so you could play 6vs6 if you wanted to, but only if you were in a party of 6 (the other team doesn't have to be in the same sized party), it would allow for bigger games when you had bigger parties, or if you just prefer 8vs8 without having to add another playlist for what would have essentially no gametype differences between the two.
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#98 redman

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 02:46 PM

had a game last night and the team we played just hid in that underground area where the shotgun is on Snowbound. They headed straight for it and stayed down there the whole game. So my team, me, a friend and random people, spent the entire game just lobbing grenades down there and trying to pick them off that way, but they never came out and fought.

I was disgusted at the time. Anyone else use this tactic for this map? they won. I suppose it might be legitimate enough if you're getting raped by the ghost.
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#99 MalevolentPanda

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 03:17 PM

6v6, 6v6, 6v6.

I have no interest in 8v8 and I hope it doesn't happen as a ranked list. I don't want the DLC to be full of shit massive maps which I never want to play. Halo with more than 6 people on a team is rubbish and shouldn't be catered for.
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#100 Couch Corpse

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 03:28 PM

Halo with more than 6 people on a team is rubbish and shouldn't be catered for.

Are you speaking solely from an online perspective or does this view transfer to system link also?
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#101 MalevolentPanda

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 03:35 PM

Are you speaking solely from an online perspective or does this view transfer to system link also?

If it was up to me, 6v6 would be the limit. Then they could concentrate on making more small and medium maps. You're right that the real problem with 8v8 is the fact that it falls apart online, but more than that, I think any more than 6 starts to dilute the experience, lag or no lag. Maybe other people are better than me at keeping track of things, but I find it starts to get impossible to know where all your team are and what they are doing with 8 on a team. Things are less coordinated, and your personal contribution is less important in determining the end result.
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#102 Couch Corpse

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 03:56 PM

True, but I've never played 8v8 linked, let alone with 16 good/seasoned players. Plus 8v8 lends itself to 2 squads of 4 (2 cover 2), I think this might work best on a 4 per box setup giving each squad more information about the other players. I find on the small/medium maps (referring to the halo series), it's difficult to regroup before the other team is on top of you.
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#103 Pob

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 04:19 PM

I think something like Battlefield 2 is more suited to 8v8 and above, with its map, command structure, waypoint-setting, mobile respawn points etc. It is very hard to co-ordinate that many people in Halo.
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#104 Timmo

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 05:02 PM

After playing team slayer a stupid amount, I've decided now that Narrows is awful, and all the rest good. I'm a bit crap at Isolation, but I'm getting better.

Shotty Snipers is an abomination, still, and appears far too much, still. I hate the stupid sniper rifle so much.
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#105 MalevolentPanda

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 05:38 PM

I think Narrows is a much better objective map than it is a slayer map.
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#106 Couch Corpse

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:19 PM

I think something like Battlefield 2 is more suited to 8v8 and above, with its map, command structure, waypoint-setting, mobile respawn points etc. It is very hard to co-ordinate that many people in Halo.

Yes, though I like to play Halo with very harsh penalties for dieing, halo is best enjoyed slowly and tactically using the map to your advantage not just trying to control it, and not continually running to your death.

Had anyone played serious 16-player LAN?
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#107 superstarbeejay

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 08:27 AM

had a game last night and the team we played just hid in that underground area where the shotgun is on Snowbound. They headed straight for it and stayed down there the whole game. So my team, me, a friend and random people, spent the entire game just lobbing grenades down there and trying to pick them off that way, but they never came out and fought.

I was disgusted at the time. Anyone else use this tactic for this map? they won. I suppose it might be legitimate enough if you're getting raped by the ghost.


We had some level 35+s doing it to us a few nights ago. Stupid thing is that it's a stupid tactic. You've got control of all of the power weapons (bar shotty), the bubble shield and more importantly, the power drainer. Best tactic is to stock up on grenades, have one person on each entrance, drop the power drainer in through the pipe entrance and grenade away. Then pick them off as they respawn desperately trying to get back to the bunker. We went behind early on but wooped their ass towards the end as they were losing and started pannicking and running out of the base.
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#108 redman

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 10:11 AM

yeah I think we just weren't organised enough.
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#109 utopastac

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 10:15 AM

I used to not like Snowbound, but I appreciate it more now. Staying underground only really works in double team, if then. I think it would be better if there were slightly more cover in between the two bases, though.
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#110 Straps

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 10:38 AM

Every single game I play on Snowbound descends into a camp fest. I try going outside but it doesn't work at all. I veto it pretty sharpish. Where's the power drainer on that map then?
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#111 Guest_alisdair_*

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 10:43 AM

Snowbound is the worst map ever (shortly followed by Epitaph) for Lone Wolves Oddball. Apart from that it's fine, really. The dual maulers spawning outside are a good foil for shotgun whoring.

I learned a few map-related lessons from the Pizzown C drubbing by OSG last night. Some of these are obvious tactics which take skill and decent teamwork to execute, but others are just nice little tricks that anyone can use. I'll post a few just now and a few more later once I've analysed the saved films a bit more.

The Pit

At the start, split into two teams. Send two guys for regen and sniper, and check if the other team is doing the same. If not, send someone for the sword as well. Send the other two with needler/BR/stickies towards rockets. The ideal case would be to skirmish around the rockets, being careful not to die, until your sniper can get back to the shotgun corner of the rocket corridor. Then temporarily retreat from the rockets, because the sniper should be able to take out anyone who gets near them.

OSG's play on this map was a great example of area control and teamwork. For example, I spawned on top of the base, and saw an opponent running from the rockets towards our shotgun, so I threw a grenade at the fusion cores and tried to reach AR range. His shields dropped, but before I got there I was body-sniped from the active camo spawn, then BR-headshotted from somewhere near the sword room - they had absolutely all of our side of the map covered.

Guardian

I've been thinking about this a bit, and I can't help but think the starting spawns are a bit lop-sided. I previously thought of it as overshield/sniper vs active camo/shotgun, which seemed pretty balanced to me. But in our game, the other team spawned at the spikers, then split up and went for active camo and got there well before we could.

So one team absolutely gets their choice of overshield, carbine, sniper, mauler, dual spikers, brute shot, and bubble shield. The other team gets shotgun, magnums, mauler, and probably BR just before they die to the active camo mauler guy from the other team. Am I missing something?

Construct

You can stand on the lip of the purple lift with a mauler and look down below. If you see a grenade, especially a sticky, it's obviously a good idea to step back. If you see a player coming up, aim at the top of the lift and prepare for one-shot/melee for an easy kill. It's slightly faster and more reliable than waiting for them to actually leave the lift, and doesn't give them a chance to acquire a target and shoot you first.

If your team controls the sniper and the laser, it's fairly safe to stand on the sniper/bubble shield spawn spot and observe the map. With either sniper or laser, and sword or mauler in case someone gets close, you can inform your team of the movement of the opponents. You can also laser me as I try to sneak up the yellow lift with a missile pod :)
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#112 Toejam

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Posted 06 November 2007 - 12:18 PM

Construct

You can stand on the lip of the purple lift with a mauler and look down below. If you see a grenade, especially a sticky, it's obviously a good idea to step back. If you see a player coming up, aim at the top of the lift and prepare for one-shot/melee for an easy kill. It's slightly faster and more reliable than waiting for them to actually leave the lift, and doesn't give them a chance to acquire a target and shoot you first.



Everything you wrote is dead on, except this bit, if you are doing my little camping tactic at the top of the purple lifts, make sure you stay on the lip and crouch when you see a grenade coming up, it will go over your head and explode way behind you, usually followed by a person thinking you have no shield coming up, then give them a good smacking :).
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#113 redman

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 09:49 AM

Bungie have added a Heatmaps option to your stats page: http://www.bungie.ne...player=redman76

it lets you see where you, or anyone does most of their killing on a certain map
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#114 Guest_alisdair_*

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 09:52 AM

Arguably more importantly, where you (or anyone) does most of their dying. Amazing feature, Bungie.net is ace.
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#115 redman

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 09:57 AM

just about to add that to my post. yeah, bungie.net is superb
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#116 Straps

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 10:26 AM

Posted Image

:wub:
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#117 Jumble Jumble

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 12:31 PM

I wonder if anyone's Snowbound will look any different to that. Mine looks like the exact same image.
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#118 superstarbeejay

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:54 PM

I wonder if anyone's Snowbound will look any different to that. Mine looks like the exact same image.


Mine's very different:

http://www.bungie.ne.......p=127&inf=6

Most of my kills are in or on top of the left hand bunker
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#119 Guest_alisdair_*

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 02:05 PM

I think these might be only for recent games, not all your ranked games. Here's mine, which doesn't reflect how I normally play:

http://www.bungie.ne.......p=127&inf=6

The last couple of times I played Snowbound, the other team kept running through the shield door into the high base, right onto my grenades. It's not something I do often, since I don't normally play people so continually stupid.
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#120 Talvalin

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 05:39 PM

I think these might be only for recent games, not all your ranked games. Here's mine, which doesn't reflect how I normally play:

http://www.bungie.ne.......p=127&inf=6

The last couple of times I played Snowbound, the other team kept running through the shield door into the high base, right onto my grenades. It's not something I do often, since I don't normally play people so continually stupid.


My kills, mainly in the bases with the shotgun/mauler, but I get a reasonable number of kills outside as well (BR/sniper)
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